PDA

View Full Version : Bow hunting personal protection firearm.



henkesean
10-05-2011, 02:51 PM
What caliber side arm would be sufficiet for protection while bow hunting to protect against bear and cougar?

Jerry
10-05-2011, 03:03 PM
Without a doubt for me, I carry a 44 mag. Some may say it is over kill, but If I want to dissuade something I don't want to have to shoot a dozen times. Same thing for concealed carry!

Drhorsepower
10-05-2011, 03:39 PM
I would carry a 9x23. Odd caliber but amazing.

MT backcountry hunter
10-05-2011, 05:20 PM
I have a snub nose Ruger SP101 in .357. I wanted a pistol that would cover a wide range of use, from personal protection to bear encounters. I keep 380 ammo in it when its in the car and then I throw in the .357 180 grain solids when headed into bear country. I can also practice alot with the pistol since 380 ammo is cheap and recoil is next to nothing.

Bitterroot Bulls
10-05-2011, 06:01 PM
MT backcountry hunter,

I hope you mean you keep .38 special ammo in your sp101. :confused: That is a fine carry pistol.

I think good bear spray is the best deterrent to a bear attack. There have been a lot of people mauled by wounded bears, and then there are tragedies like the hunter being shot and killed by his partner in north Idaho this year, trying to shoot a mauling grizzly.

That said, I often carry a .40 S&W Glock while in the backcountry.

dcestnik
10-05-2011, 06:59 PM
44, 454 or 500 with solid cast bullets if you can make a drop dead in their tracks shot in a panic or save a ton of weight with bear spray.

Elkoholic307
10-05-2011, 07:16 PM
I carry a 41 mag and would prefer not to carry anything smaller in griz country.

bushmasterar15
10-06-2011, 03:06 AM
Glock 21C 45acp or the G22-23 40 S&W

shootbrownelk
10-06-2011, 07:48 AM
I carry either a bobbed ruger super redhawk (4"bbl.) shooting Barnes XPB,
or a 4" N-frame S&W in .41 mag. also with the Barnes bullets. I agree with Jerry,
one good hit with a big-bore is better than the "spray & pray" with lesser calibers.

RUTTIN
10-06-2011, 07:51 AM
I carry a Taurus Judge, 3 45 long colts, and the rest are 410. Don't get the big grizz in Utah, so I think it would work fine on Black bear.

jenbickel
10-06-2011, 09:00 AM
I also carry a .41 mag... I love it! :)

miller1
10-06-2011, 12:45 PM
I have a 357 sig i carry when in black bear and cat country, im thinking about selling it and getting a Glock 20 (10mm)

Drhorsepower
10-06-2011, 01:18 PM
.357 sig is a great cartridge.

jbtx
10-06-2011, 02:51 PM
What ever caliber you decide to carry, just make sure your very proficient with your handgun.....
When your worst thoughts come to life right infront of you, you have to have the mindset to react instinctively and to place your shots where they need to be......You might be proficient on the range, but the rugged wilderness terrain will place you off balance and you will probrably have to be moving when your shooting. Practice shooting from different postitions and scenarios....

Drhorsepower
10-06-2011, 03:03 PM
What ever caliber you decide to carry, just make sure your very proficient with your handgun.....
When your worst thoughts come to life right infront of you, you have to have the mindset to react instinctively and to place your shots where they need to be......You might be proficient on the range, but the rugged wilderness terrain will place you off balance and you will probrably have to be moving when your shooting. Practice shooting from different postitions and scenarios....

I second that. You can have whatever caliber you want but the best one is the one you can use proficiently. You would do more damage with a 9mm you have shot 5k times than a whatever you have shot 100 times.

bushmasterar15
10-07-2011, 12:10 AM
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r62/bushmaster9999/SVI-1.jpg

Drhorsepower
10-07-2011, 12:15 AM
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r62/bushmaster9999/SVI-1.jpg

That's one bad 1911. I'm glad to see another 1911 fan on here. I love em. I would own more if my pockets were deeper.

What caliber?

8750
10-07-2011, 06:55 PM
I used to carry a Glock 22 .40 sw. but now I carry bear spray. Anything would have a hard time taking 15 rounds of .40 s&w, but in the end a bear's weakest system is his nose and respiratory system. Bear Spray is very efective at damageing this system. On the other hand when you shoot a bear you are attacking his circulatory system, which is quite tough. A bear can go for a long time even if you hit him in the pumper. He wont go anywhere with his sinuses full of pepper spray.

tim
10-14-2011, 06:25 PM
MT backcountry hunter,

I think good bear spray is the best deterrent to a bear attack. There have been a lot of people mauled by wounded bears, and then there are tragedies like the hunter being shot and killed by his partner in north Idaho this year, trying to shoot a mauling grizzly.

.


this one is a wierd one, especially since the kid mistook the young grizzly for a black bear and wounded the bear. Both hunters went looking for the wounded bear, when the bear charged and the kid shot the other hunter while he was tyring to kill the wounded grizzly bear.
a bad situation all the way around.

Elkoholic307
10-14-2011, 09:07 PM
I've kicked around the Handgun vs. Bear Spray ideas for a while now, but am still clinging my gun. Reason being, my bullets fight the wind a whole lot better than the spray. After messing around with a can of bear spray I saw how much the wind can drift it around. Everyone knows how windy the high country can be, so what if the wind is not in your favor?

catman
10-26-2011, 01:30 PM
I recommend checking regulations for your hunt area for legality of carrying a gun during bow season. Wyoming does or did have regulations against carrying a firearm during bow season. I just tried to find in current regulations for reference and was unable to find it. A check of the regulations would be a good idea. I carry bear spray while in the mountains but always feel better when I have a gun along also!

floorya
10-26-2011, 04:07 PM
like mentioned above. nevada does not permit you to carry any firearm while bow hunting. now having said that.... i carry an xd.45.:cool:

hardstalk
10-26-2011, 06:55 PM
True on the Nevada statement above. I always choose to draw a mtn lion tag if successful in the deer draw and if I am caught with a side arm I have a valid kitty tag to fight the case.

jenbickel
10-26-2011, 07:26 PM
I recommend checking regulations for your hunt area for legality of carrying a gun during bow season. Wyoming does or did have regulations against carrying a firearm during bow season. I just tried to find in current regulations for reference and was unable to find it. A check of the regulations would be a good idea. I carry bear spray while in the mountains but always feel better when I have a gun along also!

They just barely changed the regulations for carrying a handgun while bowhunting in Wyoming.. i think it was like a year ago that they changed it to where you are allowed to.

Jon Boy
10-26-2011, 10:31 PM
They just barely changed the regulations for carrying a handgun while bowhunting in Wyoming.. i think it was like a year ago that they changed it to where you are allowed to.

Washington just did the same thing. Ive read though if you fight it in a state that has a law against it you can win, Federal law (2nd amendment) always over rides state law. Not sure if its true but it does make sense.

DIYLife
03-10-2014, 11:50 AM
I just bought a Ruger GP100 .357 mag.
It is fun to shoot, and should be sufficient in a black bear/ mountain lion situation.

kiddwinner
03-10-2014, 01:21 PM
bear spray is probably your best option for bears!

Don K
03-10-2014, 07:00 PM
Im with kiddwinner on this one

Retterath
03-10-2014, 07:41 PM
glock 20 in 10mm

Fink
03-10-2014, 08:24 PM
glock 20 in 10mm

How do you like that Glock 20? I've been thinking hard about buying one. I currently run a Kimber 1911, and bear spray. My plan is to spray the bear with the bear spray, and then finish him off with the .45

trkytrack2
03-10-2014, 10:53 PM
Bear spray only. I honestly believe that few hunters could effectively draw, aim and shoot quickly and accurately enough to stop a charging bear. A blast of bear spray, even from two feet away, will cause any bear to change it's mind real quick.

kiddwinner
03-11-2014, 08:32 AM
trkytrack2 youre right, if you look at some stats its surprisingly much more effective than a gun

tim
04-23-2014, 03:38 PM
bear spray for bears, and .40 s&w for everything else. more worried about the 2 legged ones, than the 4 legged ones.

Againstthewind
04-23-2014, 08:02 PM
I am on the bear spray team, too. I am not an expert, but the national park rangers and game wardens and everyone I have heard talk about it say to go with the bear spray. 307 has a good caution, though. One time I thought I should test out the bear spray. I made sure I was upwind of the spray, but wasn't watching my kid so close. He got a little bit of blowback. Just enough to make his eyes water a little, but he always seems to tell that story.

OregonJim
04-23-2014, 10:40 PM
.40 Baretta 8040 Cougar.
I've thought about getting a .410/.45 Judge.

I'm not on the bear spray bandwagon. If I hunted in Grizzly/Brown Bear country I might be.
I have seen how long a human can keep hurting you after sprayed and how they usually curl up after 5-10 seconds after a good spray. That is with a spray that is designed to incapacitate rather than irritate.
There is lot of misinformation out there but it sure seems that bear spray is less hot than human spray. (concentration OC)
Obviously you get a heck of a lot more range and volume with a canister of bear spray.

I am a big believer in muscle memory and drawing a sidearm comes a lot more naturally to me than pulling a spray can from my belt.
I guess if I were hunting in Grizz country I'd carry both but in a true charge I'm burning powder with the first one in the ground if there is time.

Anyone actually sprayed a bear or have good knowledge ???

OregonJim
04-23-2014, 10:44 PM
I am on the bear spray team, too. I am not an expert, but the national park rangers and game wardens and everyone I have heard talk about it say to go with the bear spray. 307 has a good caution, though. One time I thought I should test out the bear spray. I made sure I was upwind of the spray, but wasn't watching my kid so close. He got a little bit of blowback. Just enough to make his eyes water a little, but he always seems to tell that story.

HA.... I emptied a human defense canister of OC spray down the bathroom sink once because it said not to throw it in the trash.
I had a mask and goggles and the window open:o.
Should have told the Mother-in-Law who decided to wash her face later that evening....:D

Againstthewind
04-23-2014, 11:05 PM
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf

This is pretty much what I have been told in the bear aware things I have gone to. Kiddwinner from Cody has a lot of local knowledge I would say.

http://www.examiner.com/article/bear-spray-vs-guns-argument-is-ridiculous-says-bear-safety-expert

There are two sides to everything as usual. For me personally the choice is pretty simple because I am terrible with a handgun. My dad was an instructor at the police academy, but I haven't shot for so long I am not sure I could hit the broad side of a barn. So I am in the category of not being skilled enough to count of them.

Elkhunter96
04-23-2014, 11:52 PM
I would carry both in Grizz country. That being said, bear spray sucks when it's windy at all. A guide I know in Alaska simply says it adds some flavor to the food before the bear eats ya...

mntnguide
04-24-2014, 12:07 AM
I carry a .44 mag super red hawk with a 4" barrel at all times when guiding in NW wyoming wilderness. . I always carry bear spray to give to my guests on summer trips; and we wrap our hunting camp in 3 strand electric fence that pushes 11,000 volts when turned on..I have had a good friend empty a full can of spray on a charging Griz three times before he had to shoot her with his .45-.70 3 more separate charges and she died 10 feet from his feet. . Spray doesn't deter a hungry Griz, just adds taste to the air. I wouldn't leave camp without my Pistol in Griz country. Ive seen them run through the stuff like its no big deal. Just my personal thoughts from my own close encounters each year.

Colorado Cowboy
04-24-2014, 06:48 AM
I carry a .44 mag super red hawk with a 4" barrel at all times when guiding in NW wyoming wilderness. . I always carry bear spray to give to my guests on summer trips; and we wrap our hunting camp in 3 strand electric fence that pushes 11,000 volts when turned on..I have had a good friend empty a full can of spray on a charging Griz three times before he had to shoot her with his .45-.70 3 more separate charges and she died 10 feet from his feet. . Spray doesn't deter a hungry Griz, just adds taste to the air. I wouldn't leave camp without my Pistol in Griz country. Ive seen them run through the stuff like its no big deal. Just my personal thoughts from my own close encounters each year.

When I hunted in your part of Wyoming , I carried both. I'm very proficient with a handgun (I'm a NRA Pistol instructor) and am confident I can hit what I am shooting at very well. Our outfitter required all hunters to have bear spray, he said it was a FS requirement in a wilderness area with grizzlies (not sure how true that was!) . I do know we had several encounters with them and my guide carried a .44 mag and I had a S&W .50 and spray. Luckily we did not need to use them. Our camp was surrounded with electric fence and there were 3 or 4 camp dogs. One night the dogs really started raising a fuss and at breakfast they said we had been visited by a bear .

libidilatimmy
04-24-2014, 08:35 AM
When bow hunting in grizz country, we always carry a slug gun. The caller will have this handy at all times, but bear spray is carried by both at all times as well.

sheephunter
04-26-2014, 01:37 PM
I carry a Taurus Titanium 41 mag...sometimes I lust for the firepower of my RSR 44 mag but I have the 9 1/2" barrel and it's just too big and heavy to carry the places I end up going. I actually had my 41 mag out of the holster once on a sow with a cub at a later measure 11 yards and all I could think was "if I kill this bear I am really going to screw my weekend up"; I think the bear spray camp certainly has some merit.

wa-hunter
04-26-2014, 03:34 PM
girlfriend bought me a glock 10mm for Christmas for my new back country carry gun!!! what a good girl!!!

ivorytip
03-08-2015, 11:03 AM
I carry a .44 mag super red hawk with a 4" barrel at all times when guiding in NW wyoming wilderness. . I always carry bear spray to give to my guests on summer trips; and we wrap our hunting camp in 3 strand electric fence that pushes 11,000 volts when turned on..I have had a good friend empty a full can of spray on a charging Griz three times before he had to shoot her with his .45-.70 3 more separate charges and she died 10 feet from his feet. . Spray doesn't deter a hungry Griz, just adds taste to the air. I wouldn't leave camp without my Pistol in Griz country. Ive seen them run through the stuff like its no big deal. Just my personal thoughts from my own close encounters each year.

and that's all I need to know. currently have a rehawk .357 but thing is so heavy , and long, looking at a new .44

In God We Trust
03-08-2015, 11:38 AM
Just out of curiosity does anyone know the statistics of how many grizzly attacks/deaths occur in Wyoming each year? I ma headed up to the northern part of Region G this summer/ fall and am going to carry a can of bear spray as well as my S & W M&P .40 Cal that carry with me whenever I am hunting

Bitterroot Bulls
03-08-2015, 12:03 PM
I carry a .44 mag super red hawk with a 4" barrel at all times when guiding in NW wyoming wilderness. . I always carry bear spray to give to my guests on summer trips; and we wrap our hunting camp in 3 strand electric fence that pushes 11,000 volts when turned on..I have had a good friend empty a full can of spray on a charging Griz three times before he had to shoot her with his .45-.70 3 more separate charges and she died 10 feet from his feet. . Spray doesn't deter a hungry Griz, just adds taste to the air. I wouldn't leave camp without my Pistol in Griz country. Ive seen them run through the stuff like its no big deal. Just my personal thoughts from my own close encounters each year.

Sounds like a dangerous place.

Do you think having your camps in the same place year after year and all the food issues that go along with that is a factor in the number of angry grizzly encounters you are having?

Do you think the bears in your area react differently than bears in areas where bear spray has proved to be an effective deterrent?

What did you do in your attack where the bear ran through the spray?

Colorado Cowboy
03-08-2015, 12:20 PM
Sounds like a dangerous place.

Do you think having your camps in the same place year after year and all the food issues that go along with that is a factor in the number of angry grizzly encounters you are having?

Do you think the bears in your area react differently than bears in areas where bear spray has proved to be an effective deterrent?

What did you do in your attack where the bear ran through the spray?

When I was on an elk hunt in Thorofare (in the Teton Wilderness) several years ago, the camp was protected with elec wire & had dogs for alarm too. All the food was on tree platforms and we were not allowed to have any food (candy, nuts, etc) in our tents. Every hunter had to have bear spray. All the guides carried it and most had heavy cal handguns too. I had my .50 S & W and the spray. We did see grizzlys several times on the trip. One night the dogs started to bark and the camp woke up in a hurry. I guess ...better safe than sorry.

One morning 2 sows & 2 year old cubs came within 40 yards of us. The wind was in our favor, but my guide was plenty nervous. We got out the spray and guns and got ready. Thankfully they kept walking away and we never saw then again.

ivorytip
03-08-2015, 12:30 PM
the wind, as has been said before, is my only hold back with bear spray. I would love to hear some first hand encounters where bear spray has worked for someone. I trust what is said on this forum more than I trust what I read in articles payed for by bear spray manufactures. grizz have started showing up in numbers in my hunting areas in Idaho where they haven't bean as much as activity as before. now every year im cutting grizz tracks.

mntnguide
03-08-2015, 12:51 PM
Sounds like a dangerous place.

Do you think having your camps in the same place year after year and all the food issues that go along with that is a factor in the number of angry grizzly encounters you are having?

Do you think the bears in your area react differently than bears in areas where bear spray has proved to be an effective deterrent?

What did you do in your attack where the bear ran through the spray?

We have the same bear or two around that camp each fall for the past few years...Hes one of the largest bears ive seen up there, and he is a nuisance, but he is what we call a "good" bear. The moment he sees us coming out at him, he takes off. Its the bears that dont take off are the ones that are dangerous. The camp being in the same spot definitely could be a problem for the couple bears that hang out down low, but we lock everything up and the bears have never really gotten a "treat" from the camp, just the constant smell of dead elk keeps one or two around. But it wouldnt surprise me at all that those bears have learned that camp will be there each fall.

The majority of bear problems i have encountered have happened while out hunting many miles from the camp. From what I gather from other guides throughout NW Wyoming, our bears are no different in how they act to other areas. Some bears are good, some are bad and dangerous in my personal thoughts. The vast time i have spent in close proximity to them, I get a pretty good idea of which kind of bear it is pretty quick just based on their physical actions. Most the bears dont push the envelope, but we have a couple in the area that are well known to us and not ones to test. We have had to give up entire elk kills to a couple of these bears, because they know they can take them. We just try to get mules to the elk ASAP and get it off the hill and back to camp.

I definitely do think bear spray works, in most circumstances. But in my opinion, a Griz that has decided to charge and attack, will not be deterred by the spray. They run through it, shake their head, do not like it at all, but if they are set on charging they usually will be persistent. We are hearing of more and more encounters each year in this area and a lot of that has to do with the growing population of grizzlies pushing one another further and further out of the previous thought "grizzly" areas. Now sometimes it is a non-resident hunter who has never been around grizzlies or bears in general and sees one at 50 yards, and shoots it because they think they are in danger, those encounters are what keep the bear and wolf lovers full of ammo in the court system unfortunately, and it happens each fall.

I really dont worry about the grizzlies much until October. When the first snows hit and the temps drop, that is when we see the bears around us acting much more persistent in finding food before hibernation. During that time of year, I am a lot more worried about bears coming in on me. I always make sure my hunters are looking for bears constantly whenever we have an elk down in thick country. . I carry the snake rounds in my .44 for the reason of a close encounter. I peppered a bear in the head to turn them away in that one instance where they got FAR to close for comfort. With all the drama surrounding them, i would much rather not end up killing one and dealing with investigation and feds, if i can help it.

mntnguide
03-08-2015, 01:00 PM
Ya never know whats hanging around late at night.....
http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s646/Stephen_Rosso/Griz%201_zpsvaseedy5.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/Stephen_Rosso/media/Griz%201_zpsvaseedy5.jpg.html)

These 3 and I were in a race to get to a bull I had got the night before, luckily I was able to run them off with my horse enough to get the bull loaded on the mules.

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s646/Stephen_Rosso/sow%20and%20cubs_zps7tttaz5l.jpg (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/Stephen_Rosso/media/sow%20and%20cubs_zps7tttaz5l.jpg.html)

Curlybuck
03-08-2015, 01:05 PM
My choice would be a 45. I can't amuze the thought of carrying a side arm during archery season. Stupid tree hugging lawmakers have made it illegal to carry a firearm during archer in Cali

Bitterroot Bulls
03-08-2015, 01:36 PM
mntnguide,

Thanks for the response.



I definitely do think bear spray works, in most circumstances. But in my opinion, a Griz that has decided to charge and attack, will not be deterred by the spray. They run through it, shake their head, do not like it at all, but if they are set on charging they usually will be persistent.

I also think bear spray works in most circumstances. Firearms can work too, and neither is fool-proof.

I haven't had your experience with bear charges. I was charged once, but I guess it wasn't determined.

I am still curious about the times you have seen a determined bear run right through bear spray. Did you have to shoot those bears? How many have you had to shoot?

Bitterroot Bulls
03-08-2015, 01:41 PM
the wind, as has been said before, is my only hold back with bear spray. I would love to hear some first hand encounters where bear spray has worked for someone. I trust what is said on this forum more than I trust what I read in articles payed for by bear spray manufactures. grizz have started showing up in numbers in my hunting areas in Idaho where they haven't bean as much as activity as before. now every year im cutting grizz tracks.

I am with you on the wind, ivorytip, but I would rather be half-sprayed than mauled.

This isn't a first-hand account, but my close friend was guiding fisherman near Iliamna Alaska several years ago, and sprayed a bear that came at him aggressively. He said it was amazing how the bear spun and took off.

Take that for what its worth. Just one account.

ivorytip
03-08-2015, 01:57 PM
I do need to start having spray with me, wear it on my belt?? just got a new holster for my sidearm that goes over shoulders, that will be nice and out of way. I will not go into mountains with out that on me. I do need to get some experience with the spray.

Bitterroot Bulls
03-08-2015, 02:07 PM
I use a FHF bear spray holster.

Colorado Cowboy
03-08-2015, 02:34 PM
I do need to start having spray with me, wear it on my belt?? just got a new holster for my sidearm that goes over shoulders, that will be nice and out of way. I will not go into mountains with out that on me. I do need to get some experience with the spray.

The one I bought had a case for it with a clip to attach it to a belt or strap.

go_deep
03-08-2015, 02:38 PM
A side story on bear spray in the kind we used it says to discharge a small amount before going a field to verify that the can works properly. My buddy at the time walks out the front door of his house turns face first into a 20+ mph points the can straight out, I look out his patio door and thought is he seriously dumb enough to push the trigger. Yep he sprayed it for maybe a second the yellow haze came right back in his face and he hit the deck crying snot rolling out out of his nose like a facet. I don't know that I have ever seen something so dumb/funny in my life. After a bit he says yea I guess it works. I took away two things this guy is kind of dumb and I can't imagine what that would be like if you got a direct hit for a couple seconds, it would have to be crippling.

ivorytip
03-08-2015, 02:42 PM
hahaha! that's great! so once you pull the trigger you can stop it? I guess my ignorance on bear spray is showing but I had always assumed once you pull the trigger that was all she wrote.

BullDawg
03-08-2015, 02:52 PM
I had a grizz come into camp 3 times one morning and the third time he wasn't going to be scared off. He stood on the other side of a log 7 yards away when we decided to spray him. He looked through the yellow haze and crossed the log towards us. He wasn't aggressive just wanted our food (we were eating breakfast when he came in the first time). I had had it and was going to shoot the bear when my dad stepped in front of me saying I would go to jail since we were in Yellowstone. So I picked up a 5 pound rock and hit the bear in the back with it and he ran off. This fall I will have bear spray on my left and a .44 on my right. When I see a bear both will come out but the hammer will be cocked on the S&W.

go_deep
03-08-2015, 02:53 PM
The kind I bought are like a aerosol can you can start and stop the spray.

Tim McCoy
03-08-2015, 03:01 PM
My two cents would be unless you are or are willing to get very, very, very good with your handgun, look hard at a purpose built bear pepper spray and keep it very handy. It will be very difficult to hit the bear, where you need to, if you have to. Pepper spray will give you a bit larger margin of error. When out and about, in Grizz/Brown bear country where weight is an issue, I bring both. Gun in camp, spray with me unless terrain is easier. If gun is in camp and game is down, the gun goes back with me always. My buddy had to stop a charge once in AK, thankfully he had a shotgun stuffed with penetrating slugs.

Buffalo bore has great ammo, including some .40 cal hard cast that would make an impression on a black bear.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=146

Some good info about bear handguns here and great ammo in a couple calibers.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/defensive.html

mntnguide
03-08-2015, 04:23 PM
mntnguide,

Thanks for the response.



I also think bear spray works in most circumstances. Firearms can work too, and neither is fool-proof.

I haven't had your experience with bear charges. I was charged once, but I guess it wasn't determined.

I am still curious about the times you have seen a determined bear run right through bear spray. Did you have to shoot those bears? How many have you had to shoot?

I have used my pistol once on a bear...He wasnt in full charge but bluff charged multiple times until the last time he stopped about 10-15 feet in front of me...I was uphill from him, and shot at him with my birdshot round that is first in my revolver...He turned and bailed back down into the trees immediately. . My knowledge of the charging bear coming through the bearspray is from my good friend and guide who had himself and a hunter charged repeatedly be a bear a few years back here in western WY. They emptied both his and his clients bear spray on her in 3-4 different charges..after that he shot her with his 45-70, which took 3 more shots and charges to put her down...All 3 shots hit her dead on, and she would run in a circle and come back again after each hit. I guess thats why i believe that if you unfortunately end up running into the "wrong" bear, very little is going to stop them if they truly decide that you are a threat to them..or dinner, whichever it is. And unfortunately with bow hunting, a lot of times we are in the thicker timber calling, where if you do happen on a bear it is most likely going to be close quarters. . The experience that my friend had, basically pushed him out of guiding in Griz country anymore. It rattled him pretty good which is understandable. They reported the incident and went through the whole investigation aspect by officials, who determined the lethal force was necessary. The fact that they used 2 cans of bear spray definitely helped prove their side of the story as well

ivorytip
03-08-2015, 05:24 PM
make you wonder how many bears are put down due to charging but we don't hear about it due to whomever shot it being scared of being locked up for defending themselves. to be honest... I think id keep it hush hush myself. even with a witness your going to be investigated and you better hope everything looks good from judges eyes.

Tim McCoy
03-08-2015, 06:13 PM
Mntnguide, good thing your friends had a gun. I suspect there is a reason no spray I know of brags about 100% effectiveness. I understand it does not work every time on people either. Last data I saw from AK did show a lower injury rate with spray than guns. I suspect that is more of a commentary on marksmanship than choice of weapon. Those things can flat move if so inclined.

go_deep
03-08-2015, 07:50 PM
Kind of always wondered if the hammerless judge with every other hole having a .45lc and the other every other hole having the .410 home defense 00 buck round would be an ideal choice. Thought was if your to busy pissing yourself you'd maybe have a chance with the home defense round if at last hitting a charging bear and at least making it change it's mind.

mntnguide
03-08-2015, 07:53 PM
I think the judge would be a pretty good one..I really like the punch those home defense .410 rounds have.. Those guns are a little bulky, but nonetheless, I would thik a pretty good bear gun, and you can blast grouse for dinner especially if you are backpacking! I carry my .44 in a custom leather shoulder holster that keeps it easily out of my way even with a backpack on and really doesnt bother me...I wouldnt carry it on my waist, because then it definitely would be a pain

Tim McCoy
03-08-2015, 08:05 PM
Kind of always wondered if the hammerless judge with every other hole having a .45lc and the other every other hole having the .410 home defense 00 buck round would be an ideal choice. Thought was if your to busy pissing yourself you'd maybe have a chance with the home defense round if at last hitting a charging bear and at least making it change it's mind.

I would be very surprised if 00 buck out of a 410 would be a good choice. Buck shot is not known for penetration, so my guess is you'd have to hope to hit and have enough mass/energy in a pellet to penetrate the skull for a stop. Just a guess on my part. I'd go with full house .45lc with a hard cast bullet purpose built to penetrate, over the buck shot, if forced to pick between the two. The Garrett link I posted earlier has some good info in it. It may mention buckshot, been a few years since I looked at it. I am wondering how big a bears brain is, grapefruit sized? Not sure, but pretty sure it will be hard to hit, so if I were to miss the brain,
I'd hope to penetrate a couple feet of bear.

Bitterroot Bulls
03-08-2015, 08:09 PM
My knowledge of the charging bear coming through the bearspray is from my good friend and guide who had himself and a hunter charged repeatedly be a bear a few years back here in western WY.

I see. I thought you were referring to first hand experience:


Ive seen them run through the stuff like its no big deal. Just my personal thoughts from my own close encounters each year.

My bear charging event sounds similar to yours. A young male grizzly came running at me, veering off about fifteen yards away, only to circle back and charge again stopping about fifteen yards away. The bear was scraping the gound like an angry bull, cracking his teeth, and barking.

I had my spray out and ready, but never did spray it. I was saving it for when he got a bit closer. I was working for he USFS at the time, and didn't have a firearm on me.

This scared me pretty good.

Neither spray or firearms are totally effective, but the numbers are with the spray. I really think ease of use in times of stress is the big difference maker. A bullet to the CNS of a grizzly will be 100% effective, but getting that done in a stressful charging situation is a tall order. That is why I generally recommned getting bear spray, and practicing how to use it, to new hunters in grizzly country.

By far, the best avoidance is keeping a clean camp, strict food storage practices, and staying bear aware.

go_deep
03-08-2015, 08:12 PM
I would be very surprised if 00 buck out of a 410 would be a good choice. Buck shot is not known for penetration, so my guess is you'd have to hope to hit and have enough mass/energy in a pellet to penetrate the skull for a stop. Just a guess on my part. I'd go with full house .45lc with a hard cast bullet purpose built to penetrate, over the buck shot, if forced to pick between the two. The Garrett link I posted earlier has some good info in it. It may mention buckshot, been a few years since I looked at it. I am wondering how big a bears brain is, grapefruit sized? Not sure, but pretty sure it will be hard to hit, so if I were to miss the brain,
I'd hope to penetrate a couple feet of bear.

I'm sure the buck shot wouldn't kill it, but I'm sure it wouldnt feel good. Like I said maybe enough to change it's mind, maybe enough to make it's mind up that you pissed it off enough and it's going to eat you now to. I just like the idea of a 18" pattern to hit something verse a single bullet. The reason I think this is I honestly don't think I could make the single bullet shot count in the moment of truth, rather have spray.

Tim McCoy
03-08-2015, 09:09 PM
I'm sure the buck shot wouldn't kill it, but I'm sure it wouldnt feel good. Like I said maybe enough to change it's mind, maybe enough to make it's mind up that you pissed it off enough and it's going to eat you now to. I just like the idea of a 18" pattern to hit something verse a single bullet. The reason I think this is I honestly don't think I could make the single bullet shot count in the moment of truth, rather have spray.

I think your choice is a wise one. I stopped a charge once with a rifle, cat, not bear, and I was ready before he came. Twas a near thing, they move very fast, as do bears. Not sure how I'd have done with a pistol, probably poorly, and I very nearly did not get the kitty stopped in time from a rifle ready position. Spray has a better success rate every time I have seen data. But it is fun to hash the idea around a bit!

Colorado Cowboy
03-08-2015, 09:10 PM
I would be very surprised if 00 buck out of a 410 would be a good choice. Buck shot is not known for penetration, so my guess is you'd have to hope to hit and have enough mass/energy in a pellet to penetrate the skull for a stop. Just a guess on my part. I'd go with full house .45lc with a hard cast bullet purpose built to penetrate, over the buck shot, if forced to pick between the two. The Garrett link I posted earlier has some good info in it. It may mention buckshot, been a few years since I looked at it. I am wondering how big a bears brain is, grapefruit sized? Not sure, but pretty sure it will be hard to hit, so if I were to miss the brain,
I'd hope to penetrate a couple feet of bear.

I agree with that 100% on the effectiveness of buckshot, especially out of a .410....to few of them to begin with. The main problem with most people and heavy recoil handguns use that they don't shoot them enough to get good and be really confident using one. I shoot literally 1000's of rounds of .45 LC full charge BP loads in my revolvers every year. I shoot competition with Ruger single actions that really pack a lot of recoil. I also shoot my .500 S & W a lot. I usually shoot a couple of hundred rounds thru it every year.

I'll take my .50 S&W any day. I am sure I could get a couple of good vital area shots into a grizz before he gets to me. That might not be enough tho, because they are really quick, can take a lot of punishment and he would probably be too damn close before you decided to shoot. Tough decision....spray first, then shoot or just shoot. Hope I am never in that position.

AKaviator
03-08-2015, 09:10 PM
I watched the video's of a bear biologist testing a taser on a large brown bear boar. It was really something to see. The bear just collapsed onto his face motionless. He was probably running a little more voltage than a standard taser.
I don't think that would be my go-to weapon but it was cool to watch.

I carry a Magna-ported Delta Elite 10mm when I don't have a large caliber rifle and my wife carries a S&W .44mag. My son has the bear spray. We've never had to use them though. The only grizzlies I've killed were with a .300 Weatherby and a .375H&H. They worked just fine.

mntnguide
03-08-2015, 09:13 PM
The big bear on the trail cam, we sprayed 2 falls ago when he was breaking into the area we store meat in, in the middle of the night. It didnt seem to phaze him one bit, and that is where ive seen the spray not show effect personally, but luckily that bear was not to much of a problem in terms of being aggressive, we just had to get him out of ripping the roof off our cabin and we used the spray and what we call our "bear" gun. We have a gun that shoots basically a firework that makes noises and explodes, they are used to get birds out of farmer fields as well. That had the best affect. . I would definitely say that spray is the better choice for people to carry, as handguns are just a last minute thing. and very few people will be able to stay calm at the last second using one, myself included im sure.

The clean camp etc...is one of the largest components of safety in bear country for sure. In the summer while running pack trips, I have had bears walk straight past my pop-up tent and next to our kitchen area, which is just under a big tarp and open air, and never touch or bother a thing. I believe this is because we lock everything and are heavily bear away and safe, and never giving them the thought that food can come from there is huge. Hunting season is a bit different cause the bears start to focus more on a meat type diet than grasses and berries.

Unfortunately that isnt the case with some camps, especially the ones that are not required to be inspected by forest service, which all outfitter camps are. There is a group out of Utah that goes into the Yellowstone meadows/lake area each June to fish the yellowstone river tributaries, They have become so known for trashing the area and killing far to many fish that forest service and Game and fish send in wardens extra early just to watch them now. It is really unfortunate. The Teton wilderness is insanely busy during summer with camps all over the place, that it really doesnt feel like a wilderness sometimes, and there is definitely plenty of times where bears are getting way to much reason to stay close to people due to dirty camps.

Colorado Cowboy
03-08-2015, 09:23 PM
Your "bear gun" got me thinking. I'll bet a flare gun like I used to have on my boat might work too. Only problem would be if you missed the bear, it would probably start a pretty good fire!!!

Tim McCoy
03-08-2015, 09:25 PM
Mntnguide, reminds me of a story I read about some guys in AK, when the bear spray was new. They figured they'd spray a circle around the tent as deterrent before bed, so the story goes. Story is bears kept them up all night sniffing around the tent. The guy who wrote the article said they were pretty sure once dispersed, the scent attracted them. They tested the theory along the river and if I recall, bears did come to it for a sniff. No idea if true or even if the same formulas are used. Sounds like in your camp you need a 12ga stuffed to the gills with benneke's best penetrating slugs for those late night visits.

mntnguide
03-08-2015, 10:20 PM
Haha. There was a story around Jackson a couple summers ago...Lady went into Kmart and bought spray...then proceeded to go into the parking lot and spray down her kids...like mosquito spray. Didnt turn out so well. . i will say 100% the bears in our area come to gunshots. . One place in particular we usually go for late season deer and when the elk migrate, there is a big ol boar up there each year who comes running to shots...I usually just throw a deer up on my saddle and bail off as fast as possible. I have watched him before follow my horse tracks step for step in the snow, when we havent even shot yet, he just knows to follow us. . its definitely a little spooky

mntnguide
03-08-2015, 10:21 PM
[QUOTE=AKaviator;138980]I watched the video's of a bear biologist testing a taser on a large brown bear boar. It was really something to see. The bear just collapsed onto his face motionless. He was probably running a little more voltage than a standard taser.
I don't think that would be my go-to weapon but it was cool to watch.

Is that video on the internet? If so do you have a link to it?

spotnstalk1
03-08-2015, 10:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fbQgjlpjgo

This thread reminded me of this classic moment on MeatEater with Rinella. "Smell us now lady!!! Smell us now!!"

Side note, I'll be packing .44mag or bigger in grizz country, personally.

spotnstalk1
03-08-2015, 10:44 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUG8UPsgE3U

And of course, the classic with Eichler. "you can't even imagine." Ha!

AKaviator
03-08-2015, 11:23 PM
It's not posted anywhere that I know. I'll try and get a copy somehow if I can.

It's been a real interesting study that they have going. They would use the taser at very close range near a fish hatchery. The bears eventually learned to recognize the smell of that one biologist that did the darting and would run whenever he even came around the hatchery.

It's an impressive video, I'll try to get it and post it.

Tim McCoy
03-09-2015, 08:37 AM
Haha. There was a story around Jackson a couple summers ago...Lady went into Kmart and bought spray...then proceeded to go into the parking lot and spray down her kids...like mosquito spray. Didnt turn out so well. . i will say 100% the bears in our area come to gunshots. . One place in particular we usually go for late season deer and when the elk migrate, there is a big ol boar up there each year who comes running to shots...I usually just throw a deer up on my saddle and bail off as fast as possible. I have watched him before follow my horse tracks step for step in the snow, when we havent even shot yet, he just knows to follow us. . its definitely a little spooky

Poor kids. Time for a few Grizz tags to be issued to reeducate the bears about gunshots. I was at an eye doctors in Worland, getting some glasses fixed while on a unit 125 deer hunt. He has a beautiful WY Grizz mount, said it was one of the last taken before they were protected. Seen plenty of bear and mounts, that one, while not huge, remains one of the prettiest I've seen.

ivorytip
03-09-2015, 08:42 AM
once we can get some of those enviros to come pet some of our grizz pets then we may be allowed to get some tags issued when some of them get mauled by a nice grizzly bear. its past due, they don't fear man, and that my friends is a very scary thing!

Bitterroot Bulls
03-09-2015, 12:04 PM
I hope they open up a MT grizzly season soon! I have a spot in mind for sure.