Muzzleloader recommendations?

[Brady]

I am in the market for a new 50 cal muzzleloader and wanted to hit you guys up on what you like. I would like one that is easy to clean. I used to have a Knight that took a long time to clean and had a ton of small parts that would be easy to lose in the field.

Are there any guns that shoot further than another? Barrel length etc?

Thanks for your tips.

Brady

[Old Hunter]

How much do you want to spend, and what state are you going to hunt?

[Nebraska Outlander]

Their are a lot of good muzzleloaders on the market now and most of them are pretty easy to clean. Can you give us some more info on what your wanting to do with the muzzleloader as far as hunting style? How far do you want to shoot? What type of game are you looking to hunt with it?? Do you want smokeless or do you just want a normal inline? There are a lot of other questions one could ask yet figured this would get us started.

I am finishing up a smokeless build. I've been using a muzzleloader since the mid 90's and figured I would try the smokeless route this year can wait to start shooting. Once you get the bug you won't be able to quit!

Nebraska Outlander

[Umpqua Hunter]

Hey Brady, I've muzzleloader hunted for about 25 years, and had three Knight rifles. They are excellent rifles, but as you mentioned a lot of parts to clean. Get yourself a break action muzzleloader!

For years I thought break action muzzleloaders looked kinda dorky, but last year I bought one and I'll have to say...that is definitely the way to go! When it comes to cleaning, you just break the action open, remove the breach plug and you have a straight shot to clean the barrel. You have almost no residue on the face where the firing pin is and so it just takes minimal wiping with solvent to clean. There is plenty of space to insert the 209 primer and when the action is closed the primer is well protected from the weather. The rifle feels shorter (since there is no bolt) and it is fast handling.

The rifle I bought was a CVA Accura. It is very accurate, in a large part due to the Bergara barrel. Bergara consulted with Ed Schilen who manufactures some of the most accurate barrels available. The new CVA Accura V2 has a breach plug that can even be removed with your fingers, which takes the ease of cleaning one step further. The trigger on the CVA Accura may be one of the best triggers factory triggers I have ever shot...it is sweet. I would whole heartedly recommend it. Go on You Tube and you can look up a few videos on that rifle.

From what I have heard, another excellent break action muzzleloader is the Thompson Center Encore. I have never shot one. With the Encore you can always get alternate centerfire barrels as well. The Encore apparently has to be bought from a dealer with a FFL (Federal Firearms License), but TC also makes another slightly different version that is exclusively a muzzleloader and can be ordered on-line.

Both of these rifles open the break action by pulling back on the trigger guard. That feature is slick, and intuitive.

I think either the CVA Accura V2 or the TC Encore would both be excellent muzzleloading rifles to consider.

[BobT]

I have been shooting a TC Encore since they first came out. If you take the time to find the right load they can be really nice shooters. I compromised a little on accuracy for ease of loading but my gun will still put 5 shots in 1.5" or less at 100 yards every time if I do my part. I have shot targets at 200 yards quite a bit and killed a deer at 205, my longest shot ever at a whitetail.

Bob

[Old Hunter]

I agree with picking a CVA. The most accurate ML i've ever owned. I've had the Accura V2, Optima, and Wolf. They all shot MOA. I'm waiting now for a new Accura Mountain Rifle that just came out. Hopefully it comes before this ML season starts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6ZDHYx484Q&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPgaCTjthw&feature=related

[Brady]

Thanks for the help guys.

I would like to hunt mulies and elk with a muzzleloader in multiple states in the west and Kansas. For some reason I'm thinking in Texas that you can't shoot smokeless powder. Anyone know if this is true in TX or anywhere out west? I would like to shoot a muzzleloader as far as reasonably possible. I shoot my .270 out to 500 yards. I know that some states have seasons that allow you to use a scope and some that are iron sights only. I'll deal with that when the time comes. It seems like in some states they have early or late season muzzleloader hunts that are better quality hunts than the rifle dates.

When I had my Knight, I just used a couple of the Pyrodex pellets and called it good. Are those pellets good enough to use for accuracy etc or in general do you need to see what your individual rifle will do with different powder combos?

Price does not matter, I'm not married yet (it's coming next year though) haha.

[Old Hunter]

I can only speak for Colorado. Here you can't use a scope, pellets, smokeless, or sabots. The ML season is the 2nd week in Sept in the beginning of the rut. (hopefully)

So, your limit here for distance will be the iron sights. You can use a peep sight, and fiber optics.

I recommend the Thor bullet, and BH 209 powder. Both of which work beautifully in the CVA Accura.

[Brady]

I would like to shoot 250 yards with a muzzleloader. I've seen on the Long Range Pursuit tv show that they have a muzzleloader that will shoot 500 yards but I'm sure it's crazy expensive.

[Old Hunter]

About $5000, and recoil from hell.

The idea of hunting with a muzzleloader is to accept the challenge of limited distance. That's why you get to hunt during the rut here. Trying to turn it into a CF gun is not something I agree with.

[Musket Man]

If you plan to hunt Idaho or Washington your muzzle loader can't use 209 primers and the ignition must be exposed. I know TC makes a gun that meets these requirements. I don't know of any other states that won't let you use a 209 primer. In Utah you can use a scope with no magnification such as a red dot. All other states I know of are iron sights only. I have a Knight disc extreme. It's been very reliable and even fired after being under water for 40 minutes!

[Nebraska Outlander]

It is neat to see how on this forum people are not so bias about one brand or the other! I also have a CVA and it will shoot 1.25" groups at a 100 yards. Yet I will tell you all the inline muzzleloaders out there will shoot very well if you take the time to dial it in.

What I would recommend is that you figure out what your plans/goals are and then look up the regs on what each state has for each season you tend to hunt or hope to hunt. Then use that as a starting point to figure out what muzzleloader you can get. I would recommend a break action also.

Last recommendation, I would check out Dougs Messaging Board there are a lot of post and articles on there about muzzleloader it would scare you! Register there and talk to the members there they will have a lot of knowledge for you.

Hope this helps,

Nebraska Outlander

[Brady]

Sounds like some of the states really want you to be traditional! I guess that is probably a good thing because some of the ML's now basically qualify as CF. I think New Mexico and Colorado will be my primary hunting states, mainly bc they are the closest to Texas where I live. I would like to throw in a Kansas muledeer every now and then. Not sure if ML in Sept or CF in December would be best for KS though. Thanks for all your help guys!

[Old Hunter]

Colorado isn't primitive enough for me. I'd love to see a flintlock, PRB, real black powder, primitive sights, and give us the same length season that bow hunters get. I'd be all over it.

[Umpqua Hunter]

Brady, you asked about Pyrodex pellets. I would recommend going to loose powder, for two reasons, you can get far more repeatable amounts of powder shot to shot, and you can dial in exactly how much powder you particular gun likes. If you end up with a muzzleloader that shoots 209 primers, I would HIGHLY recommend Blackhorn 209 powder. It has very low residue, and you can get remarkable consistency in your velocities from shot to shot, with no swabbing. I think most guys that are trying to optimize accuracy are shooting loose powder. Some people think it's expensive (Blackhorn 209), but it is only 70% the weight of blackpowder for a given load, and it takes less due do higher velocities you get with that powder.

[bigshot]

Brady, you asked about Pyrodex pellets. I would recommend going to loose powder, for two reasons, you can get far more repeatable amounts of powder shot to shot, and you can dial in exactly how much powder you particular gun likes. If you end up with a muzzleloader that shoots 209 primers, I would HIGHLY recommend Blackhorn 209 powder. It has very low residue, and you can get remarkable consistency in your velocities from shot to shot, with no swabbing. I think most guys that are trying to optimize accuracy are shooting loose powder. Some people think its expensive, but it is only 70% the weight of blackpowder for a given load, and it takes less due do higher velocities you get with that powder.

Hey guys, I just bought a new CVA Wolf Muzzleloader, and planning on trying the 209 Blackhorn powder, just wondering what make of 209 primers are you guys using.

[Old Hunter]

CCI 209M primers work good with BH 209. You need a hot primer for BH. You should also get a breech plug that is made to shoot BH 209 in the CVA guns. CVA sells one, and Western Powder makes a really nice one. Western makes the BH 209 powder. They cost about $25 and well worth the reliability they give you igniting BH 209. The Western Powder version of the breech plug comes with a drill in a holder. That's the best way to clean out the flash channel in the breech plug. Solvent won't get it out very good. A couple of twists of the drill and you're clean.

[bigshot]

Thanks old hunter I'll start searching for 209 mag primers.

[Umpqua Hunter]

Bigshot: I'm using Fiocchi (#616) 209 primers in my CVA Accura. I typically have to clean the carbon out of my breech plug every 20 to 30 shots. I am going to experiment with more frequent cleaning to fine tune accuracy.

Here is a very good blog on some issues to consider when selecting a 209 primer.

http://blog.cva.com/muzzleloader-cva-accura/


Here are two good posts on the Blackhorn 209 website on recommended primers:

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/primers/

http://www.blackhorn209.com/2011/10/which-primer-is-best-for-igniting-blackhorn-209/


Some common issues in using Blackhorn 209:

1) One problem when shooting Blackhorn 209, is having a primer that is not hot enough. Avoid special muzzleloading 209 primers.

2) Another problem is having a primer that is too "hot" and the primer itself exerts too much pressure on the load and pushes the bullet up the barrel before the powder ignites. This has its own set of ignition and accuracy problems.

3) Also as Old Hunter mentioned, the breech plug needs to be Blackhorn 209 compatible. Many breech plugs can be modified. In the past, the guys at Western Powders (Blackhorn 209 manufacturer) have been helpful with this.

4) Make sure you keep the breech plug clean. Occasionally use a close fitting drill to chase the carbon build up, and a torch tip cleaner to keep the fire channel open. Some guys are going to rifle primers in a 209 adapter to avoid this carbon build up. I have not tried this yet but it looks promising. Here is a link on that solution:

http://www.prbullet.com/lrvf.htm



TROUBLESHOOTING: There should really be no noticeable delay between the "hammer falling" and the load going off. If there is, you need to chase the problem down, and it is typically one of the four things above.

It is definitely worth working through the issues. My Accura worked right off the bat with the Fiocchi primers. Blackhorn 209 is awesome powder and definitely worth the effort to get dialed in.

[jay]

Bigshot, have you shot your CVA Wolf yet? I was curious about them cause my brother is in the market for a new muzzleloader for the upcoming season. Was looking at the TC Impact, CVA Wolf, or the Traditions Buckstalker. Thanks for the input guys!

[Old Hunter]

The Wolf is a good gun. I have one all setup for an elk hunt this year. Very accurate gun. I have an Accura MR coming, but if it doesn't make it in time for ML season. The Wolf will be fine.

[jay]

The Wolf is a good gun. I have one all setup for an elk hunt this year. Very accurate gun. I have an Accura MR coming, but if it doesn't make it in time for ML season. The Wolf will be fine.


Old Hunter, i shouldered the TC and the Wolf earlier at the gun shop and the Wolf seemed "generic" in the way the butt fit into my shoulder, seems really narrow. I know this is not they're highest model but should that concern me in leering me towards the TC?
I guess my question is why would you get the Accura if the Wolf performs as good as you say it does? Not busting your chops, just curious as you have more experience with this gun than I do. I liked the break action on the Wolf over the Impact, the other nice thing on the Wolf is the removable breech plug while the Impact needs the tool for removal. Thanks for the input!

[Old Hunter]

I needed a gun to hunt with. I couldn't take the chance that the Accura would be in before ML season starts. I'm still not sure i'll have it.

However, I have no problem hunting with the Wolf. It fits me good. Better than any TC, because TC guns have an LOP that's too short for me.

If I was forced to hunt with the Wolf for the rest of my life. I wouldn't be upset.


My Wolf.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/IMG_0577.jpg

[bigshot]

Bigshot, have you shot your CVA Wolf yet? I was curious about them cause my brother is in the market for a new muzzleloader for the upcoming season. Was looking at the TC Impact, CVA Wolf, or the Traditions Buckstalker. Thanks for the input guys!

Sorry Jay, I just noticed your post. I have not shot my Wolf yet. Still in the process of buying everything. I just received my new breach plug from Western Powder Co. for their BH209 Powder, and waiting for the Thor bullet sizing kit. I was only able to find some Federal 209A primers to start out with, so gonna see how they work until I can find some CCI Mag or Fiochi. So I'm still in the process, but when I do I'll post the results on here.

I also purchased an older mountain rifle type CVA muzzle loader and I believe the barrel twist is more designed for round balls. I'm planning on getting the Wolf set up first then work on the old Mountain rifle.

[bigshot]

Bigshot: I'm using Fiocchi (#616) 209 primers in my CVA Accura. I typically have to clean the carbon out of my breech plug every 20 to 30 shots. I am going to experiment with more frequent cleaning to fine tune accuracy.

Here is a very good blog on some issues to consider when selecting a 209 primer.

http://blog.cva.com/muzzleloader-cva-accura/


Here are two good posts on the Blackhorn 209 website on recommended primers:

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/primers/

http://www.blackhorn209.com/2011/10/which-primer-is-best-for-igniting-blackhorn-209/


Some common issues in using Blackhorn 209:

1) One problem when shooting Blackhorn 209, is having a primer that is not hot enough. Avoid special muzzleloading 209 primers.

2) Another problem is having a primer that is too "hot" and the primer itself exerts too much pressure on the load and pushes the bullet up the barrel before the powder ignites. This has its own set of ignition and accuracy problems.

3) Also as Old Hunter mentioned, the breech plug needs to be Blackhorn 209 compatible. Many breech plugs can be modified. In the past, the guys at Western Powders (Blackhorn 209 manufacturer) have been helpful with this.

4) Make sure you keep the breech plug clean. Occasionally use a close fitting drill to chase the carbon build up, and a torch tip cleaner to keep the fire channel open. Some guys are going to rifle primers in a 209 adapter to avoid this carbon build up. I have not tried this yet but it looks promising. Here is a link on that solution:

http://www.prbullet.com/lrvf.htm



TROUBLESHOOTING: There should really be no noticeable delay between the "hammer falling" and the load going off. If there is, you need to chase the problem down, and it is typically one of the four things above.

It is definitely worth working through the issues. My Accura worked right off the bat with the Fiocchi primers. Blackhorn 209 is awesome powder and definitely worth the effort to get dialed in.

Hey Umpqua Hunter, thanks for the information I found it very good reading!!

[Old Hunter]

The Federal primers will work fine with the Western Powder BP. They'll even work with the stock BP if you have the headspace adjusted for a tight fit.

[jay]

sounds good, thanks for the info guys!

[trkytrack2]

I needed a gun to hunt with. I couldn't take the chance that the Accura would be in before ML season starts. I'm still not sure i'll have it.

However, I have no problem hunting with the Wolf. It fits me good. Better than any TC, because TC guns have an LOP that's too short for me.

If I was forced to hunt with the Wolf for the rest of my life. I wouldn't be upset.


My Wolf.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/IMG_0577.jpg

You just have that scope on your Wolf for grins, right. Scopes are illegal to use during muzzleloading season in Colorado but you already know that.

[Old Hunter]

Yes, I do, but I have a special license that lets me use a scope due to poor eyesight.

[Nebraska Outlander]

I have switched my muzzleloader to a 45 smokeless. Lets me extend my range out past 400 and still legal here in Nebraska. As far as other states not sure this would work however it might work in some. Another thing is I don't have to clean this very much any more and the cost is almost or more than half of what it used to cost.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t133/cdpurcell/Hunting/105_0032.jpg

Let us know what you decide on a gun!!

Nebraska Outlander

[Brady]

Great conversations guys! Keep the info/opinions coming.

Thanks
Brady

[Old Hunter]

Here's my latest CVA Accura MR. I really like it, and it fits me perfect.

The target is my sight in the first time I shot the gun. The three lower right shots were with two scope adjustments. It wasn't moving towards the bull fast enough, so the last shot I moved it a bunch, and hit the sweet spot.

BH 209 90gr, Thor 250gr bullet, CCI 209M primer, 100yds, Scope set on 1.5X

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/IMG_0619.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/IMG_0621.jpg

[sjsmallfield]

Not bad for an old guy. Haha Just kidding!

[Old Hunter]

Yeah, but it's true. :(

[sjsmallfield]

Didn't think it would take you too long to respond. That is a sweet looking setup. I keep trying to talk myself into buying one. I already have a T/C Encore so all I have to do is buy a barrel.

[BKC]

Yes, I do, but I have a special license that lets me use a scope due to poor eyesight.
Hey Old Hunter, I just read this thread for the first time in a while and saw this. What the Hell, I read your post # 10 and your post # 14 and then I see that you get to use a scope on your ML! WTF I don't know the specifics of your poor eyesight and am sorry for your condition but that justifies you to use a scope on a ML? So you take your handicap and turn it around and now you get to have an advantage over all other ML hunters. How does that work? Could you have just hunted with a CF rifle, where scopes are legal ? I don't agree with this and am not sure how others see this but now I see why you are a black powder fanatic. Yesterday was opening day for ML here in Colorado, Good luck using your "primitive weapon" !

[Old Hunter]

Truth is, I broke a rib last week and turned my tag in for an OTC 2nd rifle tag. Yes, i'll use the ML for it. I always do hunt the ML in rifle seasons. I hunted with open sights for 59 years, and would prefer to still do it. Last year was my last year using open sights I shot a cow elk with an old Hawken and a PRB. Target and sights were very blurry, and I told myself I would do it again. To be fair to the game.

I've always hunted the rifle seasons with a ML, because I don't like the ML season. It's too hot for me. The only reason I was going to do it this year is some friends wanted to hunt with me in my unit, and they were hunting the ML season. So, the DOW gave me a license to use a scope in ML season. My eye doctor had to fill out a form explaining my condition. Which is completely blind in my right eye, and cataract in my left eye plus a few other problems. They won't operate on it, because it it goes wrong I could end up blind. So, I just have to deal with blurry vision. It's become much worse in the last year, and there was no way I could chance using open sights anymore.

I refuse to put a scope on a sidelock, so that why I went to an inline. My plan was always to hunt the rifle season with it. As it turned out. I'll be still doing it. I'm resting up my rib, and plan to go out with my friend to help him get a bull. carrying a backpack and gun is out of a question, but I can still hike, so I can help him out. It will be his first bull if we can get one.

Too bad you don't understand the word handicap.

[Old Hunter]

Let me add that i'm not looking for an advantage. I only still hunt timber, and my shots are close. I leave the scope on 1.5X all the time. All I wanted was the sights and target in focus.

[BKC]

Too bad you don't understand the word handicap. OH I don't want to turn this into a handicap issue. I just want to know how your handicap is turned into an advantage over all other ML's. If you want to use a scope on a ML during rifle season and it is the right temperature for you then by all means challange yourself but I think a scoped ML during ML season is taking advantage of the system. Take thge high road!

[Old Hunter]

I think someone with good eyesight has an advantage over me. I don't shoot this coped ML and better than I did when I had good eyesight with open sights.

If someone with good eyesight used a scope to take 300yd shots. He's have an advantage. I see no advantage for what I do. Actually it's still an advantage to use open sights with good eyesight at my ranges. I used to be able to get on the target much faster than I can now.

Putting all that aside. I care more about being able to take humane shots than what you think. The DOW feels the same way.

Guys using compound bows with sights have an advantage of someone using a longbow. Why don't you go rag on them too? Maybe you can rag on the guy with one arm who uses a crossbow in archery season too.

I think you you should worry about staying healthy yourself, instead of what someone else it doing.

[BKC]

Colorado isn't primitive enough for me. I'd love to see a flintlock, PRB, real black powder, primitive sights, and give us the same length season that bow hunters get. I'd be all over it. ???????????

[BKC]

About $5000, and recoil from hell.

The idea of hunting with a muzzleloader is to accept the challenge of limited distance. That's why you get to hunt during the rut here. Trying to turn it into a CF gun is not something I agree with. ??????????

[BKC]

You have to figure out what side of the fence your on!

[Old Hunter]

I thought I explained that I wouldn't put a scope on a sidelock, BUT I need a scope now. I never planned to shoot a scoped ML in ML season. As it turned out. I haven't, or i'd be hunting right now.

If I could. I'd still hunt with a Hawken, black powder, and a round ball. That's what side i'm on. Instead i'll be hunting the rifle season with a ML. I've never taken the easy way to hunt, and i'm not doing it now.

What's your problem anyway? How do you hunt, and what gun do you use? I'm betting it's an advantage over me.

[BKC]

I thought I explained that I wouldn't put a scope on a sidelock, BUT I need a scope now. I never planned to shoot a scoped ML in ML season. As it turned out. I haven't, or i'd be hunting right now.

If I could. I'd still hunt with a Hawken, black powder, and a round ball. That's what side i'm on. Instead i'll be hunting the rifle season with a ML. I've never taken the easy way to hunt, and i'm not doing it now.

What's your problem anyway? How do you hunt, and what gun do you use? I'm betting it's an advantage over me.

I'm sure what gun I use is not what you would choose, I'm sure that my style of hunting is not how you would hunt, i'm sure that I shoot way too far for you, and I'm sure that when I get old I'll probably go about it the wrong way. Have a good day Pete!

[BKC]

As it turned out, this was my only hunt of the year, as I turned in my elk tag. I turned 52 yesterday and spent the day with my son sneaking thru the corn fields. I found this buck, taking a little nap. 50 yards with t/c thunderhawk, 295 grain powerbelts. The perfect gun for this type of hunting. Had a great time with my son. Happy birthday to me!43424343

[CrimsonArrow]

As it turned out, this was my only hunt of the year, as I turned in my elk tag. I turned 52 yesterday and spent the day with my son sneaking thru the corn fields. I found this buck, taking a little nap. 50 yards with t/c thunderhawk, 295 grain powerbelts. The perfect gun for this type of hunting. Had a great time with my son. Happy birthday to me!43424343
I don't know where you're hunting, but will you be my dad?:)

[sjsmallfield]

I don't know where you're hunting, but will you be my dad?:)

No joke! That thing is a stud for sure!!

[Edelweiss]

I agree with old hunter. I am anti-inline for blackpowder seasons. I might have a $5000 5 pound sheep rifle, but to me blackpowder is black shooting conical balls out of a Haweken.

[BKC]

I agree with old hunter. I am anti-inline for blackpowder seasons. I might have a $5000 5 pound sheep rifle, but to me blackpowder is black shooting conical balls out of a Haweken.

I'm not surprised !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Edelweiss]

I'm not surprised !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Until recently I was a single middle class man, you can damn near afford anything in that situation.

I'd love to have a really nice Hawken, I have a TC but a custom one would be wonderful. Or a Jaeger with a sidelever percussion.

[Colorado Cowboy]

After reading all the posts, I guess I weigh in about my ML preferences. I'm not a purist, I hunt ML because here in Colorado it's about the only way you can hunt public land during the rut with a firearm. I have an inline TC Black Diamond that I bought in a pawn shop for $100. Shoots well enough, but sure not a tack driver and a little cumbersome loading the primer. I also found out this last season it really doesn't do well in the rain. Too many parts exposed that rust a little and then get sticky real quick. Had to take it completely apart a couple of times in the field to get the bolt to trip when the trigger was pulled. Probably going to get me an Encore if I keep ML hunting.

I really couldn't care less if you use a traditional or an inline, both are front stuffers and use black powder (or BP substitutes). IMHO sights should not be optical ( except in cases like Old Hunter) and I don't like sabots and pellatized powder. I suppose if I lived in a state where these were legal and I used them, I would favor all of them, don't know as I havn't had that experience....yet! I am looking into a New Mexico ML hunt where all are legal. So we will see............

[Brady]

Thanks for all the responses guys! I didn't expect anything like this when I started the thread. I have still not made a purchase but because of all of your help, I am less in the dark than before.

Brady

[Colorado Cowboy]

Finally made up my mind and am going to get a new ML. My choices are down to 2....TC Encore Pro Hunter or Pro hunter FX or a CVA Accura. I will need to actually see, hold, caress these before I make my choice. I'll be heading to the Grand Junction Cabelas and will really get to feel them. i'll also be researching a new sleeping bag. I reread all the posts and everyone really had good suggestions/ideas.

[Old Hunter]

I've gone back to a traditional sidelock in .54 cal. I'll shoot a round ball (PRB) for mule deer, and a 425gr lead conical for elk.

[Colorado Cowboy]

While doing some more research today i ran across a thread on a websitediscussing the CVA Accura with the Beraga barrel. Seems there have been several problems with these barrels rupturing. Anyone have any info about this?

[Matthew]

If that's true, that's disheartening. I've been eyeballing the Accura MR for a while now.

[Old Hunter]

Bergara barrels have not been blowing up. Some of the older CVA guns before Bergara barrels had a problem, and they were recalled.

Some guys are on the warpath to make CVA look bad, because they're getting paid to do it, and are sponsored by other companies. Randy Wakeman being one of them. Rumors spread fast. Even if they aren't true.

Muzzleloaders are different from CF guns. Everybody who owns one is a reloader, but have no clue how to do it. Too heavy of a charge, barrel restrictions, double loads, and the worse one of all. Using smokeless powder is the cause of these accidents.

[BKC]

I would stay away from a CVA, even though I own an older CVA .54 cal. If I was to buy a new one I would buy a T/C. Yes the CVA had some problems but not all problems were operator error. If operator error were consistant across the board, then you would have a hell of a lot more failures with T/C, since there are more T/C'S out there than CVA's. Yhis is not the case however. The problem is in Spain where most of CVA's barrels are made.

[Maineboy]

Old hunter gave me sound advice on getting my cva dialed in and it is shooting well. less than a one inch group at 100 yrds with a peep sight. while being complaint to colorado black powder regs. I did my home work and the barrel problem is not with the Bergara as old hunter stated above. I had a pro deal with TC at the time and I opted for the cva because many have done well with conicals with them and I never was able to get my TC omega to shoot conicals at all. The cva you can set the spacing on the firing pin nut to stop blow back around the primer, resulting in cleaner gun and better accuracy.

[Umpqua Hunter]

CVA Accura's are EXCELLENT rifles they are:

Very Accurate
Have one of the best triggers I have shot on a factory rifle
Easy to maintain.

It's a real shame to bad mouth them at all. Ed Shilen, one of the best barrel manufacturers in the world was the technical consultant to Bergara. Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-YEA0DRaas

[Maineboy]

BKC you sound a bit like a bully with your tangent

[Old Hunter]

I would stay away from a CVA, even though I own an older CVA .54 cal. If I was to buy a new one I would buy a T/C. Yes the CVA had some problems but not all problems were operator error. If operator error were consistant across the board, then you would have a hell of a lot more failures with T/C, since there are more T/C'S out there than CVA's. Yhis is not the case however. The problem is in Spain where most of CVA's barrels are made.


You might want to check that again. CVA is the #1 selling muzzleloader. TC has law suits too, but they keep them hidden better.

You'll also see Bergara barrels being put on TC's. I never heard of a TC barrel on a CVA.

[BKC]

BKC you sound a bit like a bully with your tangent

If thinking that being able to use a scope of any magnification power on a muzzleloader, in Colorado, during a muzzleload only season, while everyone else in the state has to go without a scope during the same season, is being a bully. Then yes, put me down for being a bully.
I could care less if you hunt with a CVA, T/C, Knight, etc... I could care less if you shoot long range or up close and personal. I could care less if you want to wear orange or not when you hunt. But when we are all after the same licenses and the same game in the same state and you have something that others don't have, that is not being equal. I guess you have to ask yourself "what is fair chase and what isn't"

[Old Hunter]

I agree with you on the scope. That's why I went back to a sidelock with iron sights. I called up the DOW, and told them to take the disability to use a scope in ML season off. I'll also use the same gun in rifle seasons

Now those with good eyes and inline muzzleloaders have the advantage over me. In rifle season everybody has an advantage. Would that be you BKC?

[Colorado Cowboy]

I could care less if you hunt with a CVA, T/C, Knight, etc... I could care less if you shoot long range or up close and personal. I could care less if you want to wear orange or not when you hunt. But when we are all after the same licenses and the same game in the same state and you have something that others don't have, that is not being equal. I guess you have to ask yourself "what is fair chase and what isn't"

I think you are being a little hard on people with disabilities. They have every right to enjoy what we enjoy despite being disabled. Do you also have a problem with disabled parking, having wheelchair accessable ramps, curbing and business requirements? You need to put yourself in their situation and THEN make a judgement. If you could not see the sights on a gun and the only solution was a scope or not hunting, what would do?
Get my point.

[Maineboy]

I did not know that co had this option for compromised eye sight but when I read this post I liked to see that there are options for hunters that are getting up there in years. When I lose the ability to hunt on public land that will be it for me. Going cookie cutter hunts to continue will not please me. So if there is a way to keep going in the country and seasons I grow to love I'm going to use that aid to do so (if it is legal). As my dad gets older I see how it can be a challenge and you too will get to that point some day. Just something to think about

[BKC]

I said from the beginning, that I didn't want to turn this into a handicap issue. If I needed a scope to see what I was shooting at then I could hunt from early September till late December with my rifle with a scope. I could choose to give up on muzzleloading totally or use my muzzleloader during any rifle season and have my scope on it. I could still hunt and get out in the field as I did before. I comend OH on the fact that he decided not to continue use of the scope on his muzzleloader during muzzleload season. CC, Don't be rediculous and use wheelchair ramps and disabled parking in your argument! OH, I'm 52, not a spring chicken but not ready for the retirement home. Youth always will have the advantage.

[Old Hunter]

I never used a scope in ML season. I couldn't bring myself to do it. Instead I decided to get even closer. I'm well within bow range now. That's when I decided to go back to a sidelock. I sure didn't need a gun that shoots past 50yds if I can't see any further than that.

It was one of the main reasons I was going to retire, but I figured 50 yd hunting, or even 25 yd hunting is better than no hunting. One thing for sure. The 425gr bullet is going to know the snot out of anything I hit. :)

[Colorado Cowboy]

BKC I fail to see the difference in the situations I cited. Handicapped is handicapped, they usually need some assistance to accomplish what you and I take for granted. My Dad, rest his soul, had macular degeneration and couldn't see regular iron sights. He could shoot well enough to kill an elk with my .300 mag and scope, which he did at 90 years old. But if he decided to go M/L hunting, should he be denied the use of a scope on a M/L, I think not, and it appears that Colo G & F agrees also.

[Old Hunter]

They give you a form. You take it to your eye doctor to fill out. Then the doctor and the DOW decide if you need a special licence. Mine was a dead bang easy decision, but I still won't use it.

I was told by a few hunters in my area that if they saw a hunter in ML season with a scope they'd turn them in to the warden. I didn't want the hassle, and I didn't want to use it if the hunters felt that way.

If I can get an elk in rifle season with a sidelock and iron sights while they use a scoped rifle. You know i'll rub it in.

[Colorado Cowboy]

OH...I don't disagree with your decision, it is yours to make. In my Dad's case, he would have had no choice. You would deserve to rub it in;) Good luck, hope you do well. At our age its just good to get out and be in the mountains with God's creatures.

[Old Hunter]

Right you are. I'll just enjoy the hunt with no expectations of a kill.

That way I won't kill myself getting the meat out. :D

[BKC]

BKC I fail to see the difference in the situations I cited. Handicapped is handicapped, they usually need some assistance to accomplish what you and I take for granted. My Dad, rest his soul, had macular degeneration and couldn't see regular iron sights. He could shoot well enough to kill an elk with my .300 mag and scope, which he did at 90 years old. But if he decided to go M/L hunting, should he be denied the use of a scope on a M/L, I think not, and it appears that Colo G & F agrees also. Well I guess If hunting with a muzzleloader with a scope is that important than I know there are some states that allow the use of this. There are also plenty of high fenced hunts you could go on. If this is that important for 9 days of hunting per year.

Maybe the Colo G & F would rather hand out special hall passes to anyone with just about any disability. This is probably easier than having to go to court with someone all lawyered up using the ADA to get 9 days of hunting in. Here I go again being a bully!

[Old Hunter]

Bully is not the word i'd use.

[Colorado Cowboy]

Yep me neither.

[Maineboy]

That was me. Just did not see the point in beating the guy up for just trying to get more years in the woods and I don't see it as an advantage.

[dying to kill]

im sure no one will agree with me on this one, but the smoke poles drive me nuts i promise my self every year after the season im gonna sell both of mine, they are a pain in the butt to clean, suck in wet weather, and drive me completly nuts that i can not get two bullets to touch each other at 200 yrds not to mention dangerious i can think of two guys not far from me that have lost their lives cuz of one going off when its not supposed to( one of the guys 4 year old girls got to see the 50 cal take the back of his head off ) in my opinion if i cant get the animal with my hoyt or remington i dont need to get it.

[Old Hunter]

What was the situation of the gun going off by accident?

[dying to kill]

the one were the 4 year old seen it he had his gun settin by the house door and when some one walked threw it they slammed the door the gun fell and went off, the other a guy was out with his son set the gun on hood of truck it fell off and went off as well, i know they shouldnt have still had their primers in, and i am pretty sure both the models were the inline type that use a a big spring behind the firing bolt instead of the new safer ones that break open like a single shot shot gun, but still i dont much trust them!

[Colorado Cowboy]

I've been shooting BP in competition for over 20 years. I used to shoot 1000 yard matches with a Sharps and am a Cowboy Action Shooter, shooting 2 to 3 times a month. I shoot somewhere around 2000 rounds a month in matches and practice. Granted I shoot BP cartridge mostly, not M/Lers. But cleanup is very simple (I use water and a touch of simple green). I actually think BP loading is easier than smokeless. Think about it, had to be so the cowboys and buffalo hunters could load their own without a lot of tools. I have also never had a problem with misfires/nonfires when I use my front stuffer. Sure its not a flintlock and does use 209 primers, but if you follow a few simple rules, you won't have much of a problem with ignition in wet weather. I use a balloon over the muzzle to keep the water out...remove prior to shooting of course. The biggest problem I have with moisture is with the trigger mechanism, get a film of rust on it and gets sticky when it gets wet. Thats why I'm getting a new M/L.

The big advantage to M/L hunting here in Colorado is that I get to hunt during the rut. I'm not a bow hunter, never was and never will be. The biggest problem I have see is the attitude of the bowhunters, they don't want the M/L hunters to intrude on THEIR season. Sharing with them is ok with me, hell they could even bowhunt during rifle season too. Makes me no difference.

[Old Hunter]

the one were the 4 year old seen it he had his gun settin by the house door and when some one walked threw it they slammed the door the gun fell and went off, the other a guy was out with his son set the gun on hood of truck it fell off and went off as well, i know they shouldnt have still had their primers in, and i am pretty sure both the models were the inline type that use a a big spring behind the firing bolt instead of the new safer ones that break open like a single shot shot gun, but still i dont much trust them!

I'm going to guess they were the plunger type. The have an unusual safety. I bet they weren't set. Muzzleloaders are just as safe as CF guns if you practice safe handling.

It's too bad what happened, but I wouldn't just blame the guns.

[Old Hunter]

I've been shooting BP in competition for over 20 years. I used to shoot 1000 yard matches with a Sharps and am a Cowboy Action Shooter, shooting 2 to 3 times a month. I shoot somewhere around 2000 rounds a month in matches and practice. Granted I shoot BP cartridge mostly, not M/Lers. But cleanup is very simple (I use water and a touch of simple green). I actually think BP loading is easier than smokeless. Think about it, had to be so the cowboys and buffalo hunters could load their own without a lot of tools. I have also never had a problem with misfires/nonfires when I use my front stuffer. Sure its not a flintlock and does use 209 primers, but if you follow a few simple rules, you won't have much of a problem with ignition in wet weather. I use a balloon over the muzzle to keep the water out...remove prior to shooting of course. The biggest problem I have with moisture is with the trigger mechanism, get a film of rust on it and gets sticky when it gets wet. Thats why I'm getting a new M/L.

The big advantage to M/L hunting here in Colorado is that I get to hunt during the rut. I'm not a bow hunter, never was and never will be. The biggest problem I have see is the attitude of the bowhunters, they don't want the M/L hunters to intrude on THEIR season. Sharing with them is ok with me, hell they could even bowhunt during rifle season too. Makes me no difference.

That's a sore spot with me too. The bow hunters get a month, and we get 9 days in ML season. They can choose to hunt with us, or not. They still have 3 weeks if they choose to not hunt with us. If they're not happy talk to the DOW. All we can do as ML hunters is hunt when the DOW tells us we can hunt.

To be honest. If I had my way. I'd let the bow hunters have their season the way it is. Then give us the 9 days after bow season ends, and before 1st rifle season begins. There's room on the calendar to do that. Then we'd be in the rut better, and the weather would be a bit cooler. Just a dream though. DOW never listens.

[Colorado Cowboy]

I'm going to guess they were the plunger type. The have an unusual safety. I bet they weren't set. Muzzleloaders are just as safe as CF guns if you practice safe handling.

It's too bad what happened, but I wouldn't just blame the guns.

You are 100% correct! Gun safety is gun safety, no matter what kind it is.