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View Full Version : Thinking of tossing it in on the points.



Edelweiss
12-17-2012, 05:30 AM
I am still overseas until the end of next year, I have 2 or 3 points for Wyoming's sheep/moose program and 1 point in Utah, Nevada and Arizona.

I am almost 40.

I have a rare blood disease and probably won't see 60. So far I am the 2nd oldest living person in my family history with the disease. No pity you bastards! I have lived more than anyone I know!

Seriously, what are the my odds on sheep/moose Wyoming and so on.

Is it worth $1000 a year to feed these 4 states? I am not 10 points in or I wouldn't even consider throwing it away, I got pissed at Wyoming when they changed it to $100, and as I am an Alaska resident, and not my Wyoming home I said "screw you guys I am going home".

Well in 2011 I started thinking, maybe I should get back in this. Did "some" research and bought points, and last year I bought points in AZ, Nevada and Utah.

Honestly, what would you do?

Would you quit sending out $1000 not to hunt, or would you keep buying points?

I can hunt 99% percent of what I want to hunt in my lifetime for under $10,000. I know it doesn't make sense financially I just need someone else to hug me and tell me I am doing the right thing.

I screwed up and quit playing the Wyoming sheep game in the beginning, and I regret it now. As I would be max points for both.

thanks,

Edelweiss
12-17-2012, 05:59 AM
Here's my self affirmation.

My priorities in life are mountain goats, pronghorns and elk in that order. Everything else is gravy.

Unless I decide because of a lack of job prospects to go to gradschool when I retire, and I can find a reasonable paying job we should have enough dough (I am hoping anyway) to afford 1 or 2 Canada/Foreign hunts a year.

Last year in Utah and Arizona, bought points for everything, with the hopes of one day drawing a big antelope area. But realistically elk and antelope in Arizona are like sheep tags in Wyoming.

I know the best thing to do is eat the 2 points, and hunt foreign for the things that interest me. Or buy land owner tags for elk/antelope in New Mexico and Texas.

Am I wrong with the stretch of thinking?

Anyone else have point panic going on?

Fink
12-17-2012, 07:51 AM
I only pick up sheep points in the areas that I'm already applying for anyways, I have a handful of points in WY, CO, AZ and UT.. At 30, I'll be an old man by the time I draw some of these tags, and realistically (if they don't change the systems on us) I could never draw some of the most coveted tags, like the NW corner of CO, or the strip for AZ deer, or even units 9 or 10 for AZ elk..

Part of me says that I was stupid for getting into the points game, I should have just bought landowner vouchers for CO and NM every other year or so.. But, at the same time, it's like buying insurance, who knows what could come down the pike in the next few years.

Honestly, if I were just applying for sheep, and dropping a grand a year to do so, I'd seriously consider just saving the money, and going to Canada.. The odds of drawing more than one sheep tag are horrible, and for 10 years of applying, you could have bought hunt elsewhere.

That being said, somebody has to draw the tags, and you damn sure won't be the guy if your name isn't in the hat.

CoHiCntry
12-17-2012, 08:10 AM
The odds of drawing more than one sheep tag are horrible, and for 10 years of applying, you could have bought hunt elsewhere.

I've always looked at collecting points as the "cheaper" way to hopefully acquire a few quality tags/ hunts over the years. Your comment has me asking myself...am I looking at this wrong??? How could 10 years of applying equal $10K to $20K or more it costs to hunt "elsewhere" for sheep, goat, moose etc? Definitely not flaming you, I'm curious if I'm missing something?

Ridgerunner
12-17-2012, 08:11 AM
I think you guys have wised up with how little value the points are in your situation. I think your money is better spent elsewhere like you said.

Fink
12-17-2012, 08:49 AM
I've always looked at collecting points as the "cheaper" way to hopefully acquire a few quality tags/ hunts over the years. Your comment has me asking myself...am I looking at this wrong??? How could 10 years of applying equal $10K to $20K or more it costs to hunt "elsewhere" for sheep, goat, moose etc? Definitely not flaming you, I'm curious if I'm missing something?

I figure if he's dropping $1k a year for 10 years, he's spent about $10k, for a roughly 1% chance of drawing a tag. If he's 40 now, what are the chances of drawing 1, let alone 2 tags, before he turns, 70? And, can a guy even be in sheep shape at age 70? I know there are few guys on here that are in really good shape at or near that age, but I don't think that to be the norm.

So, if you just use 60 as the latest he will be able to go and hunt hard, he has 20 years of applications, all offering somewhere around 1% odds. Statistically, you should draw each tag within 100 years, and you're only putting 20 towards it... Hardly a guarantee

While you may not be able to fund an entire hunt with 10 years of applying, you certainly could make a fairly substantial dent in the cost, moreso, when you consider 10 years of interest on those monies.

CoHiCntry
12-17-2012, 10:04 AM
If a guy's spending $1K a year he's applying for more than just sheep tags in each state. If this is the case he would probably draw an occasional elk, deer, or antelope tag too with the chance at moose, sheep or goat. Either way I get your point. It costs a lot of money to apply for out of state tags with little chance at drawing a tag as far as the best units and moose, sheep and goat tags are concerned. I still think it's a better option for a guy who applies for several species and wants to hunt DIY. I fork over somewhere between $400 to $500 every year to apply in 4 to 6 states. I WILL draw quality tags once in awhile. It would take me 20 years to afford a $10K hunt which is a bare minimum for hunts I'm interested in. All the while hunting less than great OTC units which we all know how great those are... I guess each person has to decide for themselves what makes the most sense. I struggle with it every year...

llp
12-17-2012, 11:56 AM
With license costs and points fees, it doesn't take long to spend a grand in app fees each year. My sunk costs are over $2K each year, without ever drawing a tag. Somewhere in the range of $200-300 per state on avearge, but some are more and very few are less. Applying for points only is a fools game unless you are in on the ground floor. Even then it is questionable, unless you are hunting some OTC units each year as well, to offset the license costs to apply.
llp

Doe Nob
12-17-2012, 12:35 PM
For sure apply everywhere there is a random draw and its cheap. Wyoming is getting worse and they are about to jack up the costs.

Utah, New Mexico, Montana you should definitely apply in, the rest, its harder to justify.

Heck if you aren't going to live that long, take out a 2nd mortgage and go kill a stone and a bighorn in Canada, when you kick off they'll sell the house anyway, its your money, die broke and happy and with lots of taxidermy. :cool:

NDHunter
12-17-2012, 01:17 PM
Nobody has mentioned Idaho yet. If you aren't applying there, that needs to be your top priority. Yea you throw away $150 each year for just one application but you will actually have a pretty good chance of drawing . As for Wyoming, maybe apply in the easiest units and hope to get lucky. That being said, if you are going to do points only for Wyoming, I wouldn't do it. Like someone else said, you need to be applying for the actual tag, assuming you have the cash to front the tag fee.

Ridgerunner
12-17-2012, 01:27 PM
Point system is such a joke, I do play but in limited states, the states figured out how to sell something without giving anything really valuable in return. The points are of value to you in the future of you draw but if you never draw they just took a lot of your money every year. At least put in for tags so you have a chance of going on some hunts somebody is going to draw the random tags.

Fink
12-17-2012, 02:34 PM
Unfortunately, building points is the only real way to play the game and be able to hunt every year without shelling out $10k each year. My point in my earlier post was just that if sheep is all your really interested in, then maybe it makes more sense to just go the outfitter route. However, if you like to hunt all species, then you have to play the point game in a way that makes practical and financial sense to you. For me, that means applying in states where I can draw a good tag every few years, like WY or CO, and applying in states that allow you to spread the app cost over multiple specie, like AZ, NV and UT. I think it also makes sense to apply in ID and NM, simply because you can draw every year, and your odds are just as good as the next guy.

Edelweiss
12-17-2012, 05:55 PM
In Utah, Arizona and Nevada I am in every points game. In Wyoming only sheep and moose.

Fink
12-17-2012, 06:27 PM
In Utah, Arizona and Nevada I am in every points game. In Wyoming only sheep and moose.

I'd say you're getting a pretty good bang for your buck then, 4 states, probably over 15 specie for somewhere around a grand. You already screwed up once, and lost your existing points, I'd rather not make the same mistake twice. :D

Edelweiss
12-17-2012, 10:38 PM
$1000 per year to not hunt x 7 years is a wilderness elk hunt in BC. Or an ibex hunt including air fare in Kyrgistan or Mongolia.

$1000 per year to not hunt x 10 years is a mountain goat hunt in BC. Or a cape buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe for 7 days.

$1000 per year to not hunt x 15 years is a dall sheep hunt in Alaska. Or a Blue sheep hunt in Nepal. Or a Marco Polo Argali hunt in Krygistan.

$1000 per year to not hunt x 20 years is a elk hunt in on the White Mountain Indian Reservation in Arizona. Or a 10 day cape buffalo hunt in Tanzania. Or a Marco Polo Argali hunt in Tajikistan.

$1000 per year to not hunt x 30 years is a Stone Sheep hunt in BC.

I can hunt Shiras moose in BC for $7500. I don't know if I'll ever live long enough to draw a tag in Wyoming.

I can hunt pronghorn antelope in the best units in Texas or New Mexico outfitted with a land owner tag for $2000- $4000. Arizona, Utah and Nevada may never give me a tag. Hell I can buy a landowner tag in New Mexico every year for $800-1500, and guide myself.

I only screwed up by being dumb enough to get back into the game at my age.

When I am living in North America again, I'll apply in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico for Antelope and Mountain goats (where available).

Whatever state I am a resident of I will continue to play the game, as cost will be small. My father has under $100 in his 11 Wyoming sheep points.

Not going to continue to support this Game and Fish pyramid scheme any longer.

Thanks to those that gave their opinions.

CoHiCntry
12-18-2012, 08:07 AM
Sounds to me like you have your answer..

HuskyMusky
12-18-2012, 03:12 PM
ditch the WY sheep points! go for the random draw if anything and don't put in for points.

WY needs to change their draw system if you ask me, would probably generate more revenue too, I'm not buying a sheep bonus point in WY, had they had a better system they'd of had 500 bucks of mine by now.

many of the best sheep units only have enough tags to go to the MOST points holders.

I still think many hunters out there don't realize how bad the WY sheep bonus point system really is, so unless you're banking on things to change in the future and have points built up, or you just hope to get lucky, or you really plan to apply for 50years...

instead of 75/25, WY should goto 50/50 or 25/75, or just square or even cube points like other states, and least give a guy with 0 pts a chance at drawing a great sheep tag, vs no chance right now if you have less than 15pts etc...

a 1% chance would mean many hunters paying $100 for a WY sheep pt, but as of now 0% chance means no thanks! and no $100 for WY.

Kevin Root
12-19-2012, 08:19 AM
For me some of the tag draws just don't sound like great options either. I mean putting out money every year and how many years it will take even to have the possibility to draw? For me, I just don't have that kind of time, money and I'm not really sure I want the pressure hunting those once in a lifetime tags in an area I'm never able to hunt and learn the area.

The money, time and pressure factor for me is better spent putting in for points for mediocre overlooked areas that have a more likely chance at drawing or they are over the counter draws. I'd rather hunt areas in other states or even in my own where I can hunt more often and with less stress. There is just something special to me about learning an area and being able to visit it year after year or at least more often.

Now I just need to make up a spread sheet to help me organize the data to hunt a few more states with the odds, seasons, etc. Organizing the data is something I've lacked in doing but I think it would help me narrow down some more places to hunt. Waiting a year or two is better than waiting a lifetime.

BKC
12-19-2012, 09:43 AM
For me, I just don't have that kind of time, money and I'm not really sure I want the pressure hunting those once in a lifetime tags in an area I'm never able to hunt and learn the area.

Kevin, I agree 100% I do not put in for many out of state tags and if I do I go there and scout it ( and sometimes before I even put in for the tag ) and try to figure out the lay of the land. I hear a lot of peoplpe who have never hunted an area show up a few days early and then try to figure out where the game should be. This to me is a odd way of doing it. I realize I live in Colorado so most of my scouting is done on horseback a 1/2 tank of gas away and can I leave Friday night and be home Sunday evening. Most people don't have this convience but to put in for a unit in a state that they haven't even seen, except on google earth, doesn't seem like a smart decision. I guess if you then hire a guide you stand a better chance but that is more money and that just drive you costs up even more.

Doe Nob
12-19-2012, 10:06 AM
Kevin, I agree 100% I do not put in for many out of state tags and if I do I go there and scout it ( and sometimes before I even put in for the tag ) and try to figure out the lay of the land. I hear a lot of peoplpe who have never hunted an area show up a few days early and then try to figure out where the game should be. This to me is a odd way of doing it. I realize I live in Colorado so most of my scouting is done on horseback a 1/2 tank of gas away and can I leave Friday night and be home Sunday evening. Most people don't have this convience but to put in for a unit in a state that they haven't even seen, except on google earth, doesn't seem like a smart decision. I guess if you then hire a guide you stand a better chance but that is more money and that just drive you costs up even more.

A lot of us love hunting the west but live thousands of miles away. Multiple scouting trips are not an option. I put in for some very good tags, if I ever draw one, I will most likely get in one scouting trip prior, then maybe a few days before the hunt, its just not feasible to travel that distance multiple times in the summer. And yes, may also hire a guide, but when they rape the non-residents for over $1000 for an elk tag, when you finally draw one in a good place, you want to make the most of it.

NDHunter
12-19-2012, 10:18 AM
ditch the WY sheep points! go for the random draw if anything and don't put in for points.

WY needs to change their draw system if you ask me, would probably generate more revenue too, I'm not buying a sheep bonus point in WY, had they had a better system they'd of had 500 bucks of mine by now.

many of the best sheep units only have enough tags to go to the MOST points holders.

I still think many hunters out there don't realize how bad the WY sheep bonus point system really is, so unless you're banking on things to change in the future and have points built up, or you just hope to get lucky, or you really plan to apply for 50years...

instead of 75/25, WY should goto 50/50 or 25/75, or just square or even cube points like other states, and least give a guy with 0 pts a chance at drawing a great sheep tag, vs no chance right now if you have less than 15pts etc...

a 1% chance would mean many hunters paying $100 for a WY sheep pt, but as of now 0% chance means no thanks! and no $100 for WY.

I actually like Wyoming's system and think it is just fine. If you don't have many points, you can apply for units that have a random draw tag and so you have a chance there. I guess if you dont like their system though, you can just apply in other states like you said.

One thing about Wyoming though is that even if you apply for a random draw tag, they automatically deduct $100 for the preference point in your refund.

Everyone bashes Wyoming but SOMEBODY will have to draw the tags in 30 years. Another thing I don't think many people know is that A LOT of people are bailing out of the game. 30-50 people in every point pool are leaving every year.

Doe Nob
12-19-2012, 12:10 PM
. Another thing I don't think many people know is that A LOT of people are bailing out of the game. 30-50 people in every point pool are leaving every year.

This is a good point to consider for those in their early 30's and younger. A lot of the baby boom generation is retiring right now. They are all in their late 50's or early 60's. In 10 to 15 years their points won't matter any more because they will be too old to use the tag. The apps should drop dramatically as the pool of people with the time and money to sheep hunt decreases.

MAKAIRA
12-19-2012, 03:58 PM
Thats a tough one-I had ten +plus points in Utah for everything but elk and I drew a premium elk tag with about 3 points.If you don't pay/play you can't win!

bdjmtn
01-14-2013, 01:41 PM
I saw on 5 K Outfitters they are giving a free hunt to a lucky someone in the military. Worth checking out. Dump the points. Don't need them for mt goats and pronghorn.