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Fink
01-05-2013, 08:36 PM
Saw this on Facebook earlier today.. Just another example of some group thinking their entitled to something..

http://www.ravallirepublic.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_33bd48d4-554a-11e2-b6a0-0019bb2963f4.html

I'm not sure how many tags Montana gives out each year, but I'd venture to say that one per unit is a pretty good chunk.
If those old boys wanna hunt sheep so bad, perhaps they should look into the unlimited hunt their fine state offers.. In 30 years of applying, I'd think they would have had plenty of time to scout it out, and get the advantage.
Or, go pay an outfitter in Canada and hunt.

Jerry
01-05-2013, 09:29 PM
Personally I think it's a good idea! Being one of these old boys that have been applying for multiple decades, time is running out. It is not always possible for people of fixed incomes to go out of the state or country for a hunt. Believe me I've tried to figure out how to go! Entitled! I say earned the right is more like it!

Eberle
01-05-2013, 10:11 PM
I heard one time if you are a resident in Wyoming your whole. Unsuccesful on drawing a sheep tag, you automatically get one at 60 years old. Not sure if that is true or not. But I agree with Jerry, it is a good idea. When you reach 65 there is not much time left to physically handle a sheep hunt.

crumy
01-06-2013, 12:16 AM
I don't believe that is true because one of my hunting buddies Grandpa is 68 and still trying for one. We are wyoming residents. But I think that is a great idea. Same with Moose and Bison if you want.

Umpqua Hunter
01-06-2013, 12:20 AM
It's a "nice" idea, and sounds good on the surface, but I believe it has some serious problems. Here are a few of my thoughts for what they are worth.

1) To put it simply, there are not enough draw sheep tags to give every "dedicated" sheep applicant a tag in their lifetime. There just aren't, it is that simple.

2) Montana already has a bonus point preference system which squares your points. If they keep the current system in place, someone who applies their entire lifetime will already have drastically improving odds later in their lifetime. Someday, there will be some "older guys" applying their 40th year and they will have 1600 times better odds than a young guy applying his first year.

3) Each year, people have a choice where they apply. Someone who applies for their lifetime in the Missouri Breaks is going to have far less of a chance to draw than someone who chose to apply in lesser areas. They made that choice. Simply by choosing to apply for a lesser quality area, someone can dramatically increase their odds of getting drawn over a lifetime of applications. You can still have an awesome time in those "lesser" areas.

4) I have read numerous posts over the years (on various sites) of people who have applied their whole lives and they are frustrated they have not drawn a sheep tag. In my home state (Oregon for example), you would have to apply about 4 lifetimes on average to draw a tag. That means 75 out of 100 of lifetime applicants will NEVER draw a sheep tag.

5) Any tags that would be allocated for older hunters has to come out of the tags issued to other applicants, which only compounds the problem for the other applicants of not drawing until they are older.

6) The only way to give out more tags is to put more sheep on the mountain.

7) A sheep tag is a privelege, not a "right".

Montana
01-06-2013, 07:18 AM
No offense. Especially those mentioned in the article, but I think we have so many other things to worry about besides more "entitlement" issues. And to anyone that has hunted sheep in montana, we all know the phrase shooting fish from a barrel should be shooting sheep off the mountain. Sad to say it but its true.
So my point is that it has nothing to do with age or ability, simply entitlement.

BKC
01-06-2013, 09:33 AM
This is a great country but one of the things that drag it down is the "entitlement attitude" of many of our citizens ( and a lot of our non citizens). Lets not screw it up any more by allowing this attitude to infiltrate the hunting community. Not everyone gets to accomplish everything on their bucket list.

Bitterroot Bulls
01-06-2013, 12:44 PM
I am not on board with this idea either. I could see having a "senior" draw for one tag statewide every year, where you would have to meet the criteria to be in the draw, so at least one of the old geezers would get one tag every year. I pretty much totally agree with UH's points.

crumy
01-06-2013, 01:25 PM
I see what you guys are saying and I can see your side as well. I just think if a guy has been a resident and drawing for 40 years without missing a beat and is 60+ there out to be some advantage. Not entitled, but extra help. I am far away from being one of those guys, but I can see where the "pioneers" as they are called with the Wyoming G/F license should get some consideration under some strict criteria..

Fink
01-06-2013, 02:56 PM
I see what you guys are saying and I can see your side as well. I just think if a guy has been a resident and drawing for 40 years without missing a beat and is 60+ there out to be some advantage. Not entitled, but extra help. I am far away from being one of those guys, but I can see where the "pioneers" as they are called with the Wyoming G/F license should get some consideration under some strict criteria..

There is an advantage, as UH pointed out, up to a 1600 times better odds advantage, what more do they want? Sorry, but we all aren't gonna draw tags with 1% odds in our lifetimes. There are a lot of ways to go about getting a sheep tag, sitting around for 40 years trying to draw one with 1% odds is just one of them..

Fink
01-06-2013, 02:58 PM
In my opinion, it's one thing to offer better odds to children, as they are the future of the sport, but to create a separate draw pool for guys that have spent the last 40-50 years hunting seems kinda selfish.

Umpqua Hunter
01-06-2013, 03:03 PM
In my opinion, it's one thing to offer better odds to children, as they are the future of the sport, but to create a separate draw pool for guys that have spent the last 40-50 years hunting seems kinda selfish.

I wish there was a "Like" button

crumy
01-06-2013, 03:28 PM
I was talking about Wyoming. That is where I currently reside and there is no advantage for 60+ there that I know of.


There is an advantage, as UH pointed out, up to a 1600 times better odds advantage, what more do they want? Sorry, but we all aren't gonna draw tags with 1% odds in our lifetimes. There are a lot of ways to go about getting a sheep tag, sitting around for 40 years trying to draw one with 1% odds is just one of them..

Shane13
01-06-2013, 03:34 PM
Preference point systems give long-time unsuccessful applicants plenty of help already, don't they?

If a fella wants to have a guaranteed chance to hunt sheep by the time he's 60, then he could take the money he'd otherwise spend on drawings every year and save/invest it until he had enough saved up to buy a hunt, couldn't he?

crumy
01-06-2013, 03:42 PM
In Wyoming, it only costs a resident around 5 bucks for a tag as they get the money sent back if they don't get. So that would take a while. 8-) but I do get what you are saying. I understand that not everyone is going to draw. It is just my opinion that for a person that has put in for 40 years without missing and is 60+ should get some extra help. Maybe do the thing UH mentioned that goes on where they get "bonus" points. I am not asking anyone to agree with me. Just chiming in my 2 cents. I put in for my son, but I don't even bother for the ram. Because yes if I want to go on a ram hunt I will just pay an outfitter and go somewhere that drawing is more favorable.


Preference point systems give long-time unsuccessful applicants plenty of help already, don't they?

If a fella wants to have a guaranteed chance to hunt sheep by the time he's 60, then he could take the money he'd otherwise spend on drawings every year and save/invest it until he had enough saved up to buy a hunt, couldn't he?

llp
01-09-2013, 11:42 AM
If you have put in for 40+ years without fail, then you have maximum points in WY. This gives you very, very good odds of drawing a sheep tag, and a guaranteed draw in some units. Can't think of anything better than that.
llp

BKC
01-09-2013, 06:36 PM
Age should not warrant special treatment within the hunting community. A hunter is a hunter. We should'nt reward someone because he put in his or her time. What makes his or her time any more valuable than the next hunter? Matbe you should have started earlier putting in for hard to get tags. Is it someone elses fault you haven't drawn the tag you so dearly want?

xtreme
01-09-2013, 08:10 PM
5077 This is my sheep hunt No tag, no gun, game warden right behind me (retired warden) age70

HayHay98
01-10-2013, 03:48 PM
I'm a resident of WY and fortunately for me, being 32 years old, and beyond lucky, I killed a sheep this year and a mtn goat. However, the preference point system worked flawlessly for me and will work flawlessly for young hunters and hunters that started applying at age 45 and younger. For those guys who started from the point onset but after age 45, there are a couple of points to remember. If you look at the G&F website, there are 118 maximum resident preference point holders for sheep. Those point holders can draw a sheep tag. However, some or most of those hunters are most likely holding out for a special, hard to draw area, BUT if they were so inclined to want a sheep tag, there are numerous areas that they could apply for and be all but guaranteed a sheep permit. So, some of the hunters are holding out for premium tags and should NOT be allowed extra preference just because of age. With that said, it is VERY unfortunate that hunters in other states and even in WY won't be lucky enough to draw the tag they always wanted or even allowed the opportunity to hunt. I wish there was a fair way to get everyone an opportunity to hunt a ram in WY. But, the current system as set up in WY, will, as long as we have good numbers of sheep, allow hunters who purchase points every year an opportunity to hunt a ram in their lifetime. Heck, at this rate, I may even have another opportunity to hunt a ram when I'm in my 60's. Is it guaranteed, absolutely not! But with my dollars I donate to the NWSF, RMEF, and other organizations, I'm doing what I can to keep sheep and other animals, habitat, and opportunities for myself and my children. A very sensitive subject that ultimately ends in that if we as hunters put our dollars and efforts into preserving our hunting heritage, that provides more opportunity for all of us. No system is perfect, but the system in WY does work, just not as quickly as I think we all would want it to. But more animals will mean better and quicker draw odds. Good luck to everyone this upcoming season!

SouthernWyo
01-13-2013, 11:27 AM
A ridiculous and selfish proposal. Another clear example of the entiltlement mentality that dominates society today. So someone hasn't drawn a specific hunting license yet? Any one of us might not be around tommorow to draw a sheep license, does that mean we should all get special treatment? Life is not fair, it is a simple fact. Some people need to get over it.

HayHay's statements above are on the mark but I would have one addition: "I wish there was a fair way to get everyone an opportunity to hunt a ram in WY." - The most "fair" system to offer an opportunity for limited licenses is a random draw. No preference for any reason. Will everyone ultimately get the opportunity to hunt? No, but everyone will have an equal opportunity to draw.

john
01-15-2013, 09:57 AM
Although sheep hunting would be a new adventure for me. It was only natural bighorn sheep hunt. We traveled to the Missouri Breaks on October with grand pa and in five days we had spotted more than 40 rams, 15 of which had horns that would make our hunting memorable.

magistrate98
02-02-2013, 11:16 AM
Isn't this what hunting is truly all about? Putting your skills to the test, outsmarting the animal and executing a successful stalk that puts you close enough to shoot the animal - with whatever weapon you choose. I have several nice photos and one nice wall mount. Some of the photos were much more difficult to get. :cool:


5077 This is my sheep hunt No tag, no gun, game warden right behind me (retired warden) age70

HuskyMusky
03-20-2013, 04:34 PM
Right or Wrong, I'd definitely support a 70yo applying for 30 years to get a sheep tag ahead of some 10yo kid who's never hunted.

Part of me thinks just make a fair system and keep the rules fair for all. Squaring points is a pretty good system IMO.

Edelweiss
03-23-2013, 04:22 AM
I am late getting into this, and have been gone a long time with work.

Wyoming has a veterans program where 50% of greater disabled vets can get free tags that people donate. So tags are donated, and the disabled vets get them. This doesn't affect the number of tags issued in the normal pool in any way.

Then you have the concept of New Mexico where kids are given a huge portion of the rifle tags, and disabled veterans are given another huge portion of the certain tags. This obviously effects tag numbers.

I don't personally beleive kids deserve tags because they are kids. They may be the future of hunting, but I have met 13 (that I can count in my head) people who have never hunted again that shot amazing animals as kids. Things like 160 whitetails, 360 bull elk, 180 mule deer, 180 bighorns, 9 inch mountain goats, and mid 90's pronghorns, not to mention Africa trips and bears and never hunted again. Ken Mellon (silver spoon heir Industrialist) of Carnegie Mellon University killed more animals, in more places than any of us ever will and was done hunting in his late 20s. He's an Weatherby Award winner and has never hunted again.

The future of hunting is white men in their 30's-50's that are middle class and finally have the ability to get out and afford to hunt. Stifling those folks will kill hunting.

Colorado Cowboy
03-23-2013, 11:40 AM
I guess I can reply to this thread as I will be 72 this year!!! I have never killed a sheep and really did not start applying until about 12 years ago. Still havn't drawn here in Colorado and have never applied anywhere else. I am not in favor of an age based tag preference. Hell I have never drawn a winning lottery ticket, does that mean I should get an advantage over a younger person cause I have less time left in my life to win.......wrong!

If these folks really want a sheep tag that bad, go with an outfitter to Canada or Alaska. Sure its more $$$$, but come on, once in a lifetime. If I wanted one that bad, I'd borrow some $$$$ against my home and go for it. Just an old fart's take!