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ADavid
01-14-2013, 08:48 PM
Found this little beauty today in my travels. Didnt even know it was in the works with all the hype of the price increase bill. Curious as to how much or little everyone supports this bill.

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2013/Introduced/SF0085.pdf

SouthernWyo
01-14-2013, 08:54 PM
No thanks, leave the system alone. The most "fair" system is a totally random draw.

Zim
01-14-2013, 09:47 PM
I don't have a horse in this race, but one thing I have definitely noted about 20 years of point games. The politicians love to sell points, then 5-10 years later screw those who bought them by devaluing them via "rule changes". The list of states is endless. The way to screw the early investors is endless. And the politicians love to devise new ways to water down the value in an effort to get new ground floor investors' fresh money. Politicians love the smell of fresh money over old money.

In my 20 years of point buying, the only states that have not devalued my points were Arizona & New Hampshire. That is it. The worst case was Maine, where after 6 years they started peddling 10 point packs for $50 or something to newbies. Talk about cutting in line! I sure hope New Mexico does not go to any point system.

Bitterroot Bulls
01-15-2013, 09:26 AM
In MT, the rule change greatly aided early investors. Originally points only slightly increased your odds, but now those same points are squared.

canvsbk
01-15-2013, 10:25 AM
I also have no dog in this fight but I find it disturbing that we have to discuss politicians and big game stuff in the same conversation. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Zim
01-15-2013, 02:24 PM
I also have no dog in this fight but I find it disturbing that we have to discuss politicians and big game stuff in the same conversation. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

It is certainly a sad state of affairs, but that is certainly the reality.

Check out my post on this topic, and especially the first 2 links up at the top. Unreal bickering to steal money:
http://forums.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?forum=15&threadid=415833&MESSAGES=19&FF=15

Wyohunter
01-16-2013, 07:40 AM
No thanks, leave the system alone. The most "fair" system is a totally random draw.

How is the random draw the most "fair"??? I used to put in for an elk area that had favorable draw odds but never once drew a tag out of that area but there were a few people that I know of that drew the same tag every single year. The only people that would think that this would be fair are the people who just happen to draw the tag every year and even some of those people would consider that unfair. A preference point system will give everybody a chance to hunt every couple of years if you stay on top of points and application dates. If that does not work for some people because the are simple minded forgetful people then they don't really want to hunt that bad.

Fink
01-16-2013, 08:40 AM
How is the random draw the most "fair"??? I used to put in for an elk area that had favorable draw odds but never once drew a tag out of that area but there were a few people that I know of that drew the same tag every single year. The only people that would think that this would be fair are the people who just happen to draw the tag every year and even some of those people would consider that unfair. A preference point system will give everybody a chance to hunt every couple of years if you stay on top of points and application dates. If that does not work for some people because the are simple minded forgetful people then they don't really want to hunt that bad.

A pure random draw is the very definition of fair. How much more fair can you get than everyone having the same random chance as everyone else? What you experienced is just bad luck, over a lifetime of drawing, you will most likely draw that tag just as often as everyone else.

What wouldn't be fair, is when your state starts a preference point system for residents, and then 15 years down the road, you have a kid thats ready to hunt, but, he or she will never draw a good tag, because they are 15 years behind the point game.

HayHay98
01-16-2013, 11:48 AM
A preference point is badly needed in WY for residents for elk, deer, and antelope. This legislation still allows for 25% of tag quota to be issued for a random draw. So that meets your idea of "fairness". 75% then is issued in the preference point system. If you look throughout the state at draw odds, most "Blue Chip" areas could be drawn in a 5 year window. This would allow guys to better plan their hunts and be assured an opportunity to hunt this area, should they choose. Their is ample opportunity to still hunt elk, deer, and antelope through 2nd and 3rd choice as well as reduced price tags. This allows for people hunt, put meat in the freezer, and build points for a future "trophy" hunt. I agree and have experienced first hand how true luck plays a role in getting opportunities to hunt. But I also was rewarded for putting in 16 years of applying/buyings points and being afforded an opportunity to hunt a trophy species. This legislation helps provide opportunities for those not as "lucky" and again boils down to all of us working hard to contribute time and dollars towards habitat and animal conservation that ultimatley puts more critters on the mountain and more tags/hunts available. I support this legislation 100%.

canvsbk
01-16-2013, 04:58 PM
As a nonresident it is pretty handy to be able to know when and where you should be able to draw a tag. Frustrating sometimes to actually know the pretty much predetermined outcome but much better for makeing plans. I can see the advantages when I think about it a bit. Any change in what you may be accustomed to most likely won't be welcome at first blush.

SouthernWyo
01-16-2013, 09:57 PM
It is the most fair because everyone has exactly the same chance at a license. No one "deserves" a license, no matter how many times they've played the game. Just because someone doesn't draw a tag that they want, it doesn't make the system unfair. It's pretty simple, with a random draw, everyone is on a level playing field, the same chance as everyone else, every year.

Wyohunter
01-17-2013, 07:11 AM
It is the most fair because everyone has exactly the same chance at a license. No one "deserves" a license, no matter how many times they've played the game. Just because someone doesn't draw a tag that they want, it doesn't make the system unfair. It's pretty simple, with a random draw, everyone is on a level playing field, the same chance as everyone else, every year.

You are right, nobody "deserves" a tag. However, the way the system is currently set up it is quite possible that a Person could apply for thirty years and never draw the tag but the same persons neighbor can solely and receive the same tag every one of the same thirty years. The people who make the laws can clearly see that this no matter how you add it up "is not fair". That is why , like it or not, Wyoming will be changing to a residents point system. For those of you that are worried about point creep, there is no need to be worried. The only places that points will creep are the areas that are extremely hard to draw, but with wyomings elk, deer and antelope populations there are not many of those areas.

SouthernWyo
01-17-2013, 08:30 PM
The only people that can't draw a tag in 30 years are the people putting in for tags with draw odds less than 5%. The only people drawing tags 30 years in a row are those that are hunting exclusively in general areas. Let's be a little more realistic. The truth is that the vast majority of resident hunters pull a limited tag for one species or another every few years at most, unless they are holding out for a unit/hunt with extremely poor odds. The units that can't be drawn in 20+ years will take even longer with a preference point system, they will become at best, once in a lifetime (or possibly never). The units that will take 2-3 years to draw with points can now be drawn every 2-3 years if not more often.

I think you are right about one thing, sooner or later, there will be a resident points system, but I don't think it has anything to do with what's right or fair, more likely who makes the most noise.

GMX
01-17-2013, 09:23 PM
All i can say as a resident i'm mixed on this one

Ilovethewest
01-18-2013, 12:35 PM
I too have no "skin" in this game outside of me and my family from Wisconsin hunting Wyoming our entire lives, my late grandfather starting in the 50's. I love the state of Wyoming as much as I love my home state of WI. I think residents of WY are the ones for the input on this one.

I do however understand, but am disappointed on the tag increases for us nonresidents. It does make it harder and harder for a "DIY public land" guy like me to keep forking over more and more to participate in the sport I love (hunting) in one of the most beautiful states in the US of A (Wyoming).

Thats all I have to say on the topic. :)

WapitiBob
01-21-2013, 12:51 AM
Curious as to which draw is more "fair", the Special or the Regular?
If this passes, you'll be getting both.

Then there's that real beauty of legislation, the points transfer. A real buffoon thought that up that one.

HayHay98
01-22-2013, 03:54 PM
Hold on guys. You're starting to talk about 2 different bills. Senate File 85 is the bill, currently passed reading in the Senate and now in the House, that deals with establishing a Resident Preference Point system. House Bill 124 is legislation that deals with transfer of preference points from a family member to another direct family member. From what I've heard among sportsmen and legislators, the House Bill 124 is gaining no traction and is most likely not going to go anywhere. Senate File 85 is moving along and will most likely get voted on. I absolutely do NOT support HB124!!! You are asking for some really raw and unethical practice here. I do support Senate File 85 as previously discussed. I think there is a tremendous amount of good dialogue, for and against, in this thread. I really appreciate all of you who weigh in on these issues, both in state and out of state. Unlike a lot of Washington politicians, I feel its good food for thought to always listen to opposing views. Its the best way to always lea

ADavid
01-22-2013, 05:40 PM
I support SF85 but absolutely do not support HB124 that bill is a load of crock!

Stig87
01-22-2013, 09:06 PM
A preference point system would be excellent. Have one friend who has drawn one bull elk tag in over 30 years of applying (for a less than premier area). I don't think it's right that some people seem to draw the same tags year after year while others have difficulty, and this is coming from somebody who has been fortunate in the lottery system.

wyghost_town
01-22-2013, 10:48 PM
I support resident preference points. In a 13 year span I drew 5 any elk tags for a premium area known for big bulls. During that same time period, my close buddy drew 1 any elk tag. Now how fair is that? This point system will assure that everyone gets to draw approximately the same number of tags over a certain time period, given all applicants apply the same or don't draw in the 25% random draw.

wyghost_town
01-22-2013, 10:52 PM
SF85 will NOT include Special or Regular draw for residents. That would have to be done in separate legislation, which will never happen. This is only about preference points for elk, deer and antelope.

WapitiBob
01-23-2013, 11:44 AM
The Bill requires the dept to implement a PP draw for residents and non residents. From what I have seen the current plan is to mirror the nr draw.
Next year could be interesting.

llp
01-23-2013, 12:47 PM
Fink has it right. A truly random draw is the only fair system. Yes, there will always be some hard luck case who can't draw a tag in a unit with 100 tags and 101 applicants. It has to happen to somebody. But odds have a remarkable way of evening out over time. Keep applying and you will keep drawing tags.
Point systems really penalize new entrants, particularly kids who couldn't apply earlier. It also discourages adults from deciding to try hunting when they wish. Most of the people whining they can't draw a tag in the random draw either didn't apply, or only applied for the toughest tag in the state. With multiple choices for deer/elk/antelope, any thinking resident can draw a tag every year.
A select group of people think they are smart enough and diligent enough that they will game the system and eventually draw a great tag. The clear definition of special interest. A random draw doesn't promise anyone anything. And the few incredibly lucky people who drew a great tag a couple years in a row will see their string ended with a random draw. The fact is this is less common than the whiners among us would lead you to believe. Over a few years, random draws really do produce random results.
llp

HiMtnHnter
01-23-2013, 06:13 PM
Those of you who support preference points, you may draw your "special" tag, but after that you will wait just as long if not longer to draw again as the number of points to draw climbs. The fairest way is totally random. Those of you who've lived in WY your whole life may have no idea how good you have it!