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Colorado Cowboy
02-15-2013, 07:10 PM
Just got my Colorado Outdoors annual Pref Point edition today. Started checking some of the units I am saving points for and damn if they all didn't require more points than the years before. The antelope unit I want to hunt needed 12 last year, looks like it will be at least 13 this year. Same for elk and deer. Hard to catchup that way!!!

packer58
02-15-2013, 09:15 PM
CC,

Is the PP edition something a NR can get ahold of.

enysse
02-15-2013, 09:47 PM
Point creep kills most people, look at Oregon, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming sheep...etc. Most states are just collecting millions of $$$'s and giving you a slim chance at good tag. It's a fact of life!

Colorado Cowboy
02-15-2013, 10:09 PM
At least Colorado still has the Hybrid drawings. If I have 5 pts or more and a unit takes 10 or more to draw, they set aside 20% of the tags for random draw among those with 5 or more points.

Timberstalker
02-15-2013, 11:14 PM
I don't know what all the other states are like, but Oregon is out of control. I started applying for Antelope when I was 27 years old, back then it took five years to draw the tag I wanted. Here I am now, 42 years old and just now have the 15 points required to draw that tag. After I draw I go back to zero, I will not apply in Oregon for antelope, it could take 25-30 years before I draw another one. I did the math one day and with the amount of points in the system now it would take 13 years to use all the points that are currantly in the system for antelope without selling anymore. Anyone who think points systems are a good thing doesn't apply in Oregon. I have been looking into applying out of state lately and it seeems I am already behind the eight ball in most states. I like Idaho's no points system.

canvsbk
02-16-2013, 07:35 AM
The preference point discussion certainly can get out of control at times. Lots of different opinions out there. Between point creep and going back to zero after you do draw it sure can seem futile at times. Not a fan of the point system myself but I also have no constructive answer to the question either. I will turn 60 this year so my focus is and has been on the easier to draw tags. It's a whole different picture at 60 than at 40.....

Colorado Cowboy
02-16-2013, 08:20 AM
CC,

Is the PP edition something a NR can get ahold of.

Not sure. I subscribe (Wyoming Wildlife too) and get it monthly. It, along with several other specials each year, are part of the subscription package. The local grocery stores carry it in their magazine section, I'll look and if I see one I'll get it and let you know. You might also call (800) 417-8986 and ask ifit is available as a single purchase. Annual subscription is $13.00 for a subscription and special guides.

AS a side note, the state published outdoor/hunting/fishing magazines are usually pretty good and very reasonable.

Colorado Cowboy
02-16-2013, 08:29 AM
A comment unrelated to my other post this am.....

When preference point first started here( and other states too for that matter), I thought this is great. After receiving ( & buying) points for a lot of years, I really am not a fan! All it is for most states is a cash cow, I hate it!!! The only redeeming thing here in Colorado is that they are cheap and you get one for almost nothing if you don't draw a tag. The only other place I participate is Wyoming and it is a joke there. The best units, even with max points, are almost impossible to draw. If you have less than max, you might wait 25 years! I would rather see a total lottery, then you have a chance, no matter how small it is.

Rant over!!!

Elkhunter96
02-16-2013, 08:50 AM
I have to agree with you. When I started applying, I thought points were great. Now years later, don't like them one bit...

enysse
02-16-2013, 09:01 AM
I have over a dozen years in the system and I have not drawn one premium tag, you read about the person who draws the tag in the random draw the first time in and it makes you sick.
If Idaho didn't charge for license just to put in the draw it would be a good system. New Mexico thanks to new legislation is a waste of time to put in for a tag...it's like playing a expensive lottery. Luckily, I'm just 40 years old and have time to hopefully make this pp system work for someday.

Old Hunter
02-16-2013, 09:21 AM
I never thought the points system was a good thing. I've been kicking and screaming the whole way.

I've always said that if you live in a unit. You should have first pick on the tags. I'm still pissed that someone from out of state can come hunt where I live, and I can't.

Rant will never be over.

wapiti66
02-16-2013, 09:31 AM
Im not a huge fan of the PP system either. Ive put in for points in Co for elk ever since I was going on youth hunts. I would get one point and go on a cow hunt in 49, that was a great time and started my addiction to elk hunting. Then through late high school and college I built up points and burned them in '10 on an archery elk hunt in 76. Now Im back to 2 and plan on burning them this year if I dont draw wyoming. I will not chase any high demand units again, point creep is ridiculous and Id rather go to a 2-3 point unit several times than wait 25 years to burn my points. I also put in for elk and moose points in wyo. in the past, but I think Im giving up on the moose because the time and money it will take to catch up (I have 2 now). My plan for moose is to save up and just book a moose hunt to Canada when I can afford it and when the time is right vs. when I can draw in the states. The PP issue is a tough one, it has it's advantages but I think there is getting to be so much demand for western big game hunts there is not enough to go around every year like we all wish. It's a game of long term commitment, and you do have an edge over that "lucky guy" putting in for the first time if you have points. Not sure I like the full lottery style either, any ideas on a better solution???

wapiti66
02-16-2013, 09:34 AM
OH, at least when you see us dirty non-residents you can have comfort knowing our tag cost 10x what you paid. And most of us are "lost in the woods" hoping to get lucky.

CoHiCntry
02-16-2013, 09:37 AM
CC,

Is the PP edition something a NR can get ahold of.


I'm sure you can get one if you call the DOW. The exact same information is on-line too. I find the PP edition worthless. Send me your address and I'll put mine in the mail to you.

enysse
02-16-2013, 09:41 AM
It really should be simple, since NR are paying for everything they should pay 10x as much for a resident tag and they should be guaranteed 20% of all tags for any animal...anything less is criminal.

Colorado Cowboy
02-16-2013, 09:52 AM
It really should be simple, since NR are paying for everything they should pay 10x as much for a resident tag and they should be guaranteed 20% of all tags for any animal...anything less is criminal.

In Colorado it can be as high as 40%!!!!

Kevin Root
02-16-2013, 10:06 AM
I've never cared for the point system. I can remember pulling tags in limited entry hunting units in my state far quicker when they did not have the point system. We have a whole lot bigger people population now here and that has to factor in but I'm just not a big fan of the point system. I may be living in the past a bit but it just was nice having more hunting options and pretty much being able to hunt where I wanted to back in the day.

Colorado Cowboy
02-16-2013, 10:19 AM
I may be living in the past a bit but it just was nice having more hunting options and pretty much being able to hunt where I wanted to back in the day.

Yep me too!!

Timberstalker
02-16-2013, 10:20 AM
Points system vs no points example. In Oregon, Sheep and Goats are strictly lottery, no points. Deer, elk and antelope are all points system. I drew a sheep tag before I drew antelope tag im my 15 years of applying here. I'm not a fan, I like the way Idaho does it, I hope they don't change a thing, if they do I hope they actually charge for tag fees up front too. Less people applying = better odds. I am starting to thing I will just hire an outfitter rather than wait decades for a DIY hunt, in the long run the high demand tags are not cheap either. I am 43 this year and time is going by very rapidly, waiting 10-15 years for a tag is hard to swallow. Life's too short.

enysse
02-16-2013, 10:27 AM
In Colorado it can be as high as 40%!!!!

From a NR prospective CO is fair to us, I was pissed when they closed us out of the ranching for wildlife draw.

Colorado Cowboy
02-16-2013, 10:32 AM
I'm 71 and have started to do exactly what you are thinking about. I still apply for points here & Wyoming. Will probably quit applying in Wyoming when I use up my current deer points. Went on a fully guided elk hunt to Wyoming 2 seasons ago, but not last year. This year will be doing a wilderness pack trip for deer. Next year it will be NM for a guided M/L elk. I'm just too damn old to wait for MAYBE getting a tag 8 or 10 years down the road!

Colorado Cowboy
02-16-2013, 10:34 AM
From a NR prospective CO is fair to us, I was pissed when they closed us out of the ranching for wildlife draw.

Was on a RFW elk hunt several years ago and was not impressed.....but that is another subject.

enysse
02-16-2013, 10:42 AM
Oregon, CA, and Washington's system for NR is just terrible...save your money for somewhere else.

Fink
02-16-2013, 11:21 AM
The whole preference points thing is pretty discouraging.. I just started a couple of years ago, and I'm not really sure it was a good idea. I will not chase the ultra blue chip units, but even middle of the road units in Utah or Arizona could take 10+ years to draw. With the amount of money I spend on licenses that I don't even use, I'm probably better off putting that towards a tresspass fee every 2-3 years, and hunting OTC in the meantime.. But, I'd really love to take animals from multiple states, and half (maybe more) the fun for me is seeing new country.

I think I'd like it a lot better if every state operated like ID.

Colorado Cowboy
02-16-2013, 01:16 PM
You really have to be picky on how you apply and use pts. Case in point is the M/L elk tag here in Co. The units I usually hunt take 1 pt for an ES tag and usually none for bull or cow. I usually apply for the bull or cow as second choice knowing I'll get it if I don't draw the ES tag. I prefer the ES tag as I'll hunt the first days of the season for a good bull and then if the conditions are not to good, i'll shoot a cow for the freezer. Good to have that option.

Old Hunter
02-16-2013, 01:30 PM
OH, at least when you see us dirty non-residents you can have comfort knowing our tag cost 10x what you paid. And most of us are "lost in the woods" hoping to get lucky.

Doesn't help a bit. I have no say in what you pay. I just want to hunt my home ground. It's the only place I hunt.

BKC
02-16-2013, 02:23 PM
I can only speak of colorado when it comes to preference point creep. enysse, don't get to upset about being excluded from Ranching for Wildlife tags, for every one good animal that gets killed there are probably 10 hunters who have a negative experience.

The preference points works fine for the tags that take 2 to 7 points. There are a lot of people that want premium unit tags and that drives up the points for those tags. Very few people bail out of the pref point chase untill they get too old and see the handwriting on the wall, but for every one person who bails about 10 people get in the chase. I started early and shot plenty of does and cows and now it is all starting to pay off, but i am a resident. I understand the beef that the NR have. When you limit tags to 20% and some units have less than 10 tags total then the creep will get way out of hand for those units. The only really fair way is too have a totally random draw but when do you start this, when someone has 18-20 points and then they get the rug yanked and are told it is now lottery?

I think the co div of wildlife would love to sell more NR tags ( more revenue )but there is too much instate pressure for the opposite to happen. The other thing that many haven't thought of is if more out of staters drew their tags then more outfitters would be out of work. The reason the draw happens so early here is so the out of staters get pissed off, book a hunt with an outfitter with guaranteed tags and spent a lot of money. Outfitting is big business and they are in the hip pockets of many who are in charge, I don't see NR tags getting any easier to draw.

I probably didn't solve anything but that is my 2 cents worth.

enysse
02-16-2013, 02:58 PM
I only put in for antelope, elk, and deer in CO. When I draw a antelope tag I'll never put in again. The sheep, mt. goats, and sheep are safe I was too poor when I was young to put in for points and am too old and far behind to apply now. The best way to hunt elk in CO is too hunt private land if you want to hunt big elk and be successful. For what it costs to hunt elk on private....lets say it's nice to watch the Outdoor channel.

Colorado Cowboy
02-16-2013, 03:00 PM
See as how BKC also brought up RFW, I'll diverse and spew a little about my experience with it. Myself and my hunting buddy spent quite a few pts getting a couple of these tags. For those who don't know, RFW let tagholders hunt unguided on their private ranches in return for Dept of Wildlife basically giving them a bunch of tags...which they sell to an outfitter. We were allowed to hunt AFTER all their guided hunts were over. The elk were mostly gone, moved into the bordering NF which was not open yet. We hunted hard for 5 days before we saw anything. I finally shot a small 5pt bull & my pard got a cow from the same small herd. Out of 15 hunters, we were the only ones to score. Learned a hard lesson on RFW.....it's not all it's cracked up to be and I'll never apply for one of these tags again.

enysse
02-16-2013, 04:08 PM
You guys are scaring me with your ranching for wildlife stories.
I have always wanted a big mule deer but have been afraid to pull the trigger on a outfitted hunt for mule deer. If you are paying $6000 for deer hunt anything less than 175 in. makes me think my money should go elsewhere.

Colorado Cowboy
02-16-2013, 04:49 PM
RFW is free.....no trespass fee or any fee whatsoever can be charged to the hunter by the landowner, except for the Resident tag.

Remember RFW is for residents only!

enysse
02-16-2013, 05:08 PM
RFW access is free if you draw the tag as a resident...that I know.
I was talking about the landowner tags and still having to pay for access and a guide.
A lot NR's are buying landowner tags and hunting public land. I think it works for the person that lives next door to CO but for everyone else it's a crap shoot.

Old Hunter
02-16-2013, 05:22 PM
enysse...........You won't feel as bad if you don't get your trophy if you DIY. $6000 in your pocket.

enysse
02-16-2013, 05:30 PM
enysse...........You won't feel as bad if you don't get your trophy if you DIY. $6000 in your pocket.

I agree that's why I'm saving my points.

wapiti66
02-17-2013, 10:21 AM
OH, I was only joking about the fees making you feel better...I know how it is to have NR pressure in your hunting grounds. Im not complaining about fees either, it's pricey but I choose to pay for it, it's my vacation every year and I enjoy it...elk or no elk. I also think they are fairly reasonable with their NR tags, plus the OTC option is awesome in my opinion. I still think the point creep is inevitable bc the demand for these hunts has an ever-increasing pool of applicants. The industry seems to be growing rapidly from my perspective and there are only so many animals out there to hunt. I don't see the state changing it's system bc 1) like BKC said, you can't pull the rug out from somebody with 20 points, or even 5 without a huge backlash 2)the state loves getting all that money from applicants to use interest free for a few months

Fink
02-17-2013, 11:14 AM
like BKC said, you can't pull the rug out from somebody with 20 points, or even 5 without a huge backlash 2)the state loves getting all that money from applicants to use interest free for a few months

I think if a state decided to pull the rug out from under point holders, they'd do it in a heartbeat, regardless of any backlash.. Governments have never seemed to take much issue with stealing from people, or changing the rules in the middle of the game.

Regarding borrowing applicant money, I'm sure the state probably has it's hands tied with what it can do with the money, since the time frame is so short.. And the interest they collect off of holding your money isn't that substantial.. They borrowed about $700 from me last year, if they invested it for 60 days, and got 3-4%, they'd make about $4. I tried to see how many people applied for licenses in CO last year, but couldn't find it

Colorado Cowboy
02-17-2013, 11:46 AM
I tried to see how many people applied for licenses in CO last year, but couldn't find it

I don't think I've ever see that figure either. The only way would be to go to the statistics and add up the total number who applied on every tag in every unit. I'm sure not going to do that!

tdub24
02-17-2013, 11:57 AM
They borrowed about $700 from me last year, if they invested it for 60 days, and got 3-4%, they'd make about $4. I tried to see how many people applied for licenses in CO last year, but couldn't find it

Wouldnt 3-4% of $700 be $21-$28 respectively, which is probably added monthly making it $42-$56 for 60 days. Then multiply that by the number of applicants and it can add up to a significant amount of money.

1seth
02-20-2013, 04:26 PM
That would be correct for 1 year (annulized) but for 60 days that is 1/6th of the year. So $4 would be more accurate.
Wouldnt 3-4% of $700 be $21-$28 respectively, which is probably added monthly making it $42-$56 for 60 days. Then multiply that by the number of applicants and it can add up to a significant amount of money.

Brady
02-20-2013, 04:52 PM
I don't know what all the other states are like, but Oregon is out of control. I started applying for Antelope when I was 27 years old, back then it took five years to draw the tag I wanted. Here I am now, 42 years old and just now have the 15 points required to draw that tag. After I draw I go back to zero, I will not apply in Oregon for antelope, it could take 25-30 years before I draw another one. I did the math one day and with the amount of points in the system now it would take 13 years to use all the points that are currantly in the system for antelope without selling anymore. Anyone who think points systems are a good thing doesn't apply in Oregon. I have been looking into applying out of state lately and it seeems I am already behind the eight ball in most states. I like Idaho's no points system.

New Mexico is the answer to your antelope problem!