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Ilovethewest
11-04-2013, 12:13 PM
I posted this on another thread, but I thought I would included a topic in the Wyoming thread

i am not a big point restriction guy. we shot a mulie b/w sundance and upton once that was almost 28" wide and 24" tall..............2x2. It was the biggest 2x2 i had ever seen, and a trophy in anyones book. and genetically, should be culled. having to pass on that buck to me is just wrong. So I would avoid point restrictions

I think there are a few changes that can be made to hunting / mule deer in wyoming. Take region C.......it encompasses several Units (17,18,19,20, 21....mayeb some others).......yet with 1 Region C tag, I can hunt all those units. what happens, is the larger more accessible public areas get hammered.....really really bad. and every forkie gets shot. so you have bad over-crowding and small buck size. solution...........get rid of general and region tags, and go unit specific for the entire state, resident or nonresident. You apply for a.......Unit 20 tag, you hunt unit 20. and that is it. set quotas per unit. take into account amount of private land vs public. this would spread out hunters and help with buck recruitment.

secondly, wyoming has a HUGE problem with private land vs public land access. I can think of 2 larger public tracts in Region C that it is virtually impossible to get to without a helicopter due to crossing private lands to get to them. yet.....those roads were put in with taxpayer dollars, maintained by taxpayer dollars......yet access is restricted by "private entities".......this is killing hunting. and frankly, it is not right or fair. My federal tax dollars pay for public property just as much as a resident from wyoming does, if it is federal lands. I would pass a law REQUIRING public access to and from public parcels larger than........who knows how large a tract say 2 square miles.....across private lands with no tresspass fee. You could require guns to be in a case......you cannot step out of the vehicle on those lands.......or something. But having landlocked public lands is a travesty. And it ruins hunting in other areas. It concentrates hunter density and kills off too many deer. Access issues have to be looked at.

I know many people might not agree with me, but I think if you worked on access and micromanaged units, you would see a huge increase in the mule deer population and buck size.

and.....I am not bashing landowners. Its the law, and if I was a landowner, I would do the same. The problem is the way the laws read. Change the laws to make public lands easier to access.

what say you guys???

kcaves
11-04-2013, 12:20 PM
I agree 100% but the fact that the Wyoming government is run by ranchers for ranchers. Nothing like that will ever happen. It's just like corner jumping

Ilovethewest
11-04-2013, 03:48 PM
I envision some sort of Walk-In program for Road access. Maybe even a extra stamp/fee like the Conservation stamp. Each area could have "access roads" on a map just like the Walk-In lands are labeled. You get your access stamp / fee and you can cross those lands. Procedes could go to ranchers for access.

Just some ideas I had after hearing people complain about mule deer hunting in Wyoming. I think changes could be made if people were willing to try and not base their opinions solely on self-gain.

anyone else? would love to hear from some other residents of the state.

This is jus ta fun discussion.......not try to argue or upset anyone!

Ilovethewest
11-04-2013, 04:12 PM
I don't want to come across as anti-landowner. I am not at all. As with everything, there are a few bad apples that ruin things. I would just like to hear some ideas on improving mule deer hunting in Wyoming. and I think Hunter Densities and land Access are 2 very big pieces of the puzzle in making better mule deer hunting in Wyoming.

and in general......especially in my state of Wisconsin......land access is really limiting hunting opportunities. We have whole generations of potential hunters not getting into the sport because of no land access. We have super liberal seasons, liberal bag limits....and yet hunting is dying because without Big Money (leases, land owning, outfitters), there are no good places to hunt. So access is a major issue for our sport. If it ever gets to the point where you have to buy land or hire an outfitter,.......our sport dies. and with it, our rights and the wildlife itself. This is a major issue.

Musket Man
11-04-2013, 06:31 PM
IMO the problem with improving BLM access is it would make those areas harder to draw. The reason these areas can be drawn every year or have leftover tags is because of the access issues. Generally in WY the better the access the harder the tag is to draw. Also those hard to get to chunks of BLM can be the best hunting if you can find a way to get to them and are willing to walk. If there were public roads going into those areas there would be lots of hunters in them

Wyohunter
11-04-2013, 06:47 PM
A 28 inch fork horn? You were in unit five just outside of upton weren't you ilovethewest.

Ilovethewest
11-04-2013, 07:39 PM
I don't remember the unit. My uncle shot it when I was a young kid in like 8th grade before I could hunt (a good 20 years ago!). We were on a ranch b/w sundance and upton. It was a brute. lots of mass too. I forget the exact measurements. Maybe it wasn't as big as I remember. I haven't seen the deer in years, but I am pretty sure my memory is correct. I should meaure it up the next time I get to my uncles place.

one way or the other, it was a buck few would pass on!

Wyohunter
11-04-2013, 07:53 PM
I don't remember the unit. My uncle shot it when I was a young kid in like 8th grade before I could hunt (a good 20 years ago!). We were on a ranch b/w sundance and upton. It was a brute. lots of mass too. I forget the exact measurements. Maybe it wasn't as big as I remember. I haven't seen the deer in years, but I am pretty sure my memory is correct. I should meaure it up the next time I get to my uncles place.

one way or the other, it was a buck few would pass on!
I agree I would have shot it and even if there was a point limitation it would probably be over looked when it comes to a deer that size. The genetics in that area are horrible it is really common to see large fork horns there.

Ilovethewest
11-04-2013, 09:21 PM
the ranches we hunted was the Dillon ranch, and also some on the Hamilton ranch. When the father, Leon, died, the family told rights out to outfitters. Not sure about the Hamilton ranch if they are outfitted or not. Couple of chunks of school land we hunted too. I miss hunting the wooded areas of NE Wyoming. while I never got to actually hunt it myself, I was along on many hunts as a kid. From what I hear, those areas are even more locked up than they were when I was a kid.

birdhunter
11-05-2013, 06:06 AM
Yep locked up even more and the access granted is even harder to achieve. That buck was around inyan kara mountain. There are even now a couple bucks that are 2 or 3 points and the 3 point is figured to be around 34 to 36" wide. There is a road that takes you from the west side of kara mtn and you can access that land. Every year there are hundreds of hunters trying to get to those deer. As soon as the season ends, the deer come out and people just stare at them. Neat to know that your uncle probably has a great great ancestor of those deer!!

Colorado Cowboy
11-05-2013, 06:42 AM
A 28 inch fork horn?

Not as unusual as you might think. I have one mounted around that size. Shot it in the High Sierras in Calif in 1969. Look at my Album, last picture (only double) on the bottom. I have also seen several like it here in Colorado. They are pretty unusual looking and do make a great wall hanger.

Stig87
11-05-2013, 07:21 AM
I agree with most of what has been said about gaining access to public lands. A good portion of the public lands that are landlocked are leased to landowners for grazing (at a pretty cheap cost too I think). IMHO if the land is leased to the landowner, then the public should have access to it.

I agree with ILovetheWest about requiring guns cased, unloaded....whatever they want while we cross private lands; but if public land is landlocked and leased to a landowner, there is no reason why the everyday sportsman should not have access to it.

MT628
11-05-2013, 08:52 AM
I'm late to the party and rarely comment on such forums, but I have to state my agreement with you on this issue. Some of the best public land hunting areas in Montana are completely surrounded by private lands which do not allow access. They however, use our public lands as their private playgrounds to recreate on - or even profit from by charging hunters exhorbitant amounts for access privilege to hunt our public lands (essentially blocking access to local hunters).

OK, off my soapbox.

shootbrownelk
11-05-2013, 09:13 AM
I agree with most of what has been said about gaining access to public lands. A good portion of the public lands that are landlocked are leased to landowners for grazing (at a pretty cheap cost too I think). IMHO if the land is leased to the landowner, then the public should have access to it.

I agree with ILovetheWest about requiring guns cased, unloaded....whatever they want while we cross private lands; but if public land is landlocked and leased to a landowner, there is no reason why the everyday sportsman should not have access to it.

I agree wholeheartedly Stig. If this were anywhere east of the missisippi river, and the parcels landlocked were as enormous as some of them here in Wyoming are, they would condemn enough ground to provide public access. And as previously stated in an earlier post, the ranchers and AG in general have a strangle hold on our legislators. They do what Ranchers want, because most of them (including Governor Mead) are ranchers themselves. Sportspeople aren't allowed free access to public lands for 2 or 3 months of the year, while ranchers have access 24/7/12 and it won't change anytime soon. Heck, even the G&F are the Ranchers bitches. My 2 cents.

HiMtnHnter
11-05-2013, 11:35 AM
I agree wholeheartedly Stig. If this were anywhere east of the missisippi river, and the parcels landlocked were as enormous as some of them here in Wyoming are, they would condemn enough ground to provide public access. And as previously stated in an earlier post, the ranchers and AG in general have a strangle hold on our legislators. They do what Ranchers want, because most of them (including Governor Mead) are ranchers themselves. Sportspeople aren't allowed free access to public lands for 2 or 3 months of the year, while ranchers have access 24/7/12 and it won't change anytime soon. Heck, even the G&F are the Ranchers bitches. My 2 cents.

I'm sorry to say that I mostly agree with what has been said. Ranchers own the legislature and the G&F. I'm also sorry to say that some slob hunters are our enemies. Ranchers are put off by the few who inevitably screw things up for the rest of us. Every year another landowner pulls a property out of WIA or HMA due to some dipsh*T who trashes their place or does something else stupid. A single moron can end it for the rest of us.

I commend the G&F for continuing to seek out opportunities for sportsmen. But their hands are tied to a great extent. They can't compete with the money of some who can pay thousands for outfitting leases. And, quite frankly, a good outfitter who can pay will have less of an impact on the land than an unlimited WIA.

It's the lucky sportsman who can get cheap access to prime ground. Most of us have to face the music that we have our work cut out for us to find good hunting on heavily hunted areas. This good hunting exists, it's just incredibly hard to find, and even tougher on the body.

ssliger
11-05-2013, 12:26 PM
I'm sorry to say that I mostly agree with what has been said. Ranchers own the legislature and the G&F. I'm also sorry to say that some slob hunters are our enemies. Ranchers are put off by the few who inevitably screw things up for the rest of us. Every year another landowner pulls a property out of WIA or HMA due to some dipsh*T who trashes their place or does something else stupid. A single moron can end it for the rest of us.
There is a ranch outside of Centennial WY called the 91 Ranch, they do not allow any hunting what so ever. So they have a resident herd of elk that lives there year round and when the bullets start flying a whole bunch more goes there. You can go out in the middle of the day and see 300 head just milling around. Just last weekend I witnessed a hunter take down a gate, leave it down and drive onto the ranch to glass the herd. The gate was posted, he just didn't care. These are the morons we are dealing with.

shootbrownelk
11-05-2013, 03:14 PM
I'm sorry to say that I mostly agree with what has been said. Ranchers own the legislature and the G&F. I'm also sorry to say that some slob hunters are our enemies. Ranchers are put off by the few who inevitably screw things up for the rest of us. Every year another landowner pulls a property out of WIA or HMA due to some dipsh*T who trashes their place or does something else stupid. A single moron can end it for the rest of us.

I commend the G&F for continuing to seek out opportunities for sportsmen. But their hands are tied to a great extent. They can't compete with the money of some who can pay thousands for outfitting leases. And, quite frankly, a good outfitter who can pay will have less of an impact on the land than an unlimited WIA.

It's the lucky sportsman who can get cheap access to prime ground. Most of us have to face the music that we have our work cut out for us to find good hunting on heavily hunted areas. This good hunting exists, it's just incredibly hard to find, and even tougher on the body.

Agreed, one bad apple spoils the rest. I've seen the idiots going off road and the "MudBoggers" ruining roads or making their own.
This year I saw 4 occupied camp trailers on Wyoming State land (Illegal) and they didn't seem to care when I told them so. That's what gets state land closed (except for ranchers). By the way, from what I've seen...the outfitters lease the prime ranches and the G&F gets access to lands from ranchers who can't lease it to outfitters because of lack of game, land that's overgrazed to the point where a grasshopper would have to pack a lunch.

shootbrownelk
11-05-2013, 03:20 PM
I agree with most of what has been said about gaining access to public lands. A good portion of the public lands that are landlocked are leased to landowners for grazing (at a pretty cheap cost too I think). IMHO if the land is leased to the landowner, then the public should have access to it.

I agree with ILovetheWest about requiring guns cased, unloaded....whatever they want while we cross private lands; but if public land is landlocked and leased to a landowner, there is no reason why the everyday sportsman should not have access to it.

Stig, the public land rancher is leasing the GRASS, he doesn't own the wildlife, and shouldn't have one damned thing to say about what gets hunted as long as it's legal and in season. Heck, they even get to negotiate gas & oil lease agreements and THEY get a cut along with the state, sometimes far in excess of what their lease payment is. A stacked deck, to say the least.

HiMtnHnter
11-05-2013, 06:35 PM
Stig, the public land rancher is leasing the GRASS, he doesn't own the wildlife, and shouldn't have one damned thing to say about what gets hunted as long as it's legal and in season. Heck, they even get to negotiate gas & oil lease agreements and THEY get a cut along with the state, sometimes far in excess of what their lease payment is. A stacked deck, to say the least.

It's all about money. The rancher will do anything to perpetuate the lifestyle. I guess it's not fair to lump them all in one category, as many do understand that we need to have a place to hunt, but most are after the all mighty dollar. I saw a trespassing sign the other day that categorizes the sentiment of many a landowner. This was on a headstone on a mock grave (with boots sticking out of the rocks): Here lies the last SOB who tried to tresspass

nv-hunter
11-05-2013, 08:31 PM
As a rancher and public land hunter , I have to say most of you should just pull up your big girl panties and get over your self. Most rancher have lived and worked thier land for generations. The reason it is still government land is because its marginal land and most likely the government doesnt control the water it's private. Now if you want to change access it will have to be done with deeded access. But what you'll end up with is as many people as on all the other public lands. Funny how everybody wants to curse the rancher but where do they want to hunt? His land because its managed and healthy. My opinion is the first rule that should be changed is the wilderness outfitter law, what total crap.

FrozeIn
11-05-2013, 09:10 PM
x2 nv-hunter It seems like a new age of "entitlement hunters" is forming, The burn the farmer and hang the rancher mentality seems to go in to overdrive this time of year.... Any new land access needs and CAN be done with land trades, to say you would force access through private is absurd.

Triple BB
11-05-2013, 09:18 PM
I agree 100% folks need to quit whining about the access issues when it come to chunks of locked up gov't land. There's plenty of other area's and opportunities to hunt without crying about not being able to access some chunk of BLM ground. However, while we're at it, I'd also like to see things taken a step further and end cowboy welfare. You know what I'm talking about; tax incentives and breaks no one else receives, gov't leases at below fair market value, and non stop gov't subsidies and handouts all doled out at the expense of the American taxpayer. Unless folks are Obama loving socialists, I'd think they'd support such an argument. Otherwise they'd just be hypocrites. Right?

HiMtnHnter
11-06-2013, 06:04 AM
[QUOTE=Triple BB;65861]I agree 100% folks need to quit whining about the access issues when it come to chunks of locked up gov't land. There's plenty of other area's and opportunities to hunt without crying about not being able to access some chunk of BLM ground. However, while we're at it, I'd also like to see things taken a step further and end cowboy welfare. You know what I'm talking about; tax incentives and breaks no one else receives, gov't leases at below fair market value, and non stop gov't subsidies and handouts all doled out at the expense of the American taxpayer. Unless folks are Obama loving socialists, I'd think they'd support such an argument. Otherwise they'd just be hypocrites. Right?[/QUO

Lots of ranchers would be out of the game if they did.

Colorado Cowboy
11-06-2013, 06:58 AM
As a rancher and public land hunter , I have to say most of you should just pull up your big girl panties and get over your self. Most rancher have lived and worked thier land for generations. The reason it is still government land is because its marginal land and most likely the government doesnt control the water it's private. Now if you want to change access it will have to be done with deeded access. But what you'll end up with is as many people as on all the other public lands. Funny how everybody wants to curse the rancher but where do they want to hunt? His land because its managed and healthy. My opinion is the first rule that should be changed is the wilderness outfitter law, what total crap.

What I don't understand is the difference between leasing the rights to gov't owned land in Wyoming and here in Colorado. Here in Co the cattle ranchers lease the grazing rights to Nat. For and BLM land. They fence off their leases, BUT cannot keep hunters out. Wyoming .....well thats sure different. I hunt on a ranch that has about 150, 000 acres of BLM leased and its fenced AND posted and patroled to keep out hunters w/o permission. The ranchers don't own it only lease it and they think and treat it as if the have the deed to it.

Just sayin..............

HiMtnHnter
11-06-2013, 07:10 AM
What I don't understand is the difference between leasing the rights to gov't owned land in Wyoming and here in Colorado. Here in Co the cattle ranchers lease the grazing rights to Nat. For and BLM land. They fence off their leases, BUT cannot keep hunters out. Wyoming .....well thats sure different. I hunt on a ranch that has about 150, 000 acres of BLM leased and its fenced AND posted and patroled to keep out hunters w/o permission. The ranchers don't own it only lease it and they think and treat it as if the have the deed to it.

Just sayin..............

If there is not a public road to the BLM then it's off limits. If theres a public road to it then the rancher can't do anything to keep you off of it. I'm pretty sure it's basically the same in CO and WY.

I read an article about a recent land acquisition in WY by the state that quoted landowners adjacent to the property as being concerned about public hunters just "near" their fences. We're not talking about hunters begging for permission or even trespassing, they don't even want them NEAR their precious property. Some of us must be being very bad.

Stig87
11-06-2013, 07:26 AM
Stig, the public land rancher is leasing the GRASS, he doesn't own the wildlife, and shouldn't have one damned thing to say about what gets hunted as long as it's legal and in season. Heck, they even get to negotiate gas & oil lease agreements and THEY get a cut along with the state, sometimes far in excess of what their lease payment is. A stacked deck, to say the least.

I completely understand that they only lease the grass, but in my opinion the price paid by the rancher to lease public land is very cheap in comparison to prices that would be paid for the alternative methods of grazing their livestock. I think the least that should be allowed in that situation is public access to the public land to hunt public wildlife. As said before there are more than enough good land owners out there that should be publically recognized for the great job they do managing their land and wildlife while still providing public access. Also, I disagree with the statement that the only lands that make it to WIA and Hunter management and the areas outfitters do not want due to lack of game. I have hunted plenty of excellent WIA and Hunter managment areas that IMHO were supurb!

HiMtnHnter
11-06-2013, 07:33 AM
Also, I disagree with the statement that the only lands that make it to WIA and Hunter management and the areas outfitters do not want due to lack of game. I have hunted plenty of excellent WIA and Hunter managment areas that IMHO were supurb![/QUOTE]

I agree. If the G&F limits access (ie: not vehicle travel, except for maybe game retrieval) and sets permit numbers relative to the size of the property, the hunting can be very good. Some of them are way over hunted.

Colorado Cowboy
11-06-2013, 07:39 AM
If there is not a public road to the BLM then it's off limits. If theres a public road to it then the rancher can't do anything to keep you off of it. I'm pretty sure it's basically the same in CO and WY.

Here in Colorado, if its leased for grazing (BLM or NF), its still public land....roads or no roads. I've actually climbed fences and hunted public land that was leased for grazing. It is not illegal to do it here. The big difference here is that they don't keep most of the cattle on it year round. On most of it they move them off around October 1. It really amazes me that there is such a big difference in how publically owned land is managed.

shootbrownelk
11-06-2013, 09:29 AM
I completely understand that they only lease the grass, but in my opinion the price paid by the rancher to lease public land is very cheap in comparison to prices that would be paid for the alternative methods of grazing their livestock. I think the least that should be allowed in that situation is public access to the public land to hunt public wildlife. As said before there are more than enough good land owners out there that should be publically recognized for the great job they do managing their land and wildlife while still providing public access. Also, I disagree with the statement that the only lands that make it to WIA and Hunter management and the areas outfitters do not want due to lack of game. I have hunted plenty of excellent WIA and Hunter managment areas that IMHO were supurb!

I guess you don't hunt antelope where I used to. Those 3 walk-in areas were terribly overgrazed, even the sagebrush.

shootbrownelk
11-06-2013, 09:36 AM
x2 nv-hunter It seems like a new age of "entitlement hunters" is forming, The burn the farmer and hang the rancher mentality seems to go in to overdrive this time of year.... Any new land access needs and CAN be done with land trades, to say you would force access through private is absurd.

Condemnation is done all the time in eastern states for public access, for access to lakes for fishing or for hunting. It just won't get done in Rancher controlled Legislatures in western states. It's not absurd, it's for the common good of the majority. Heck, I've even seen the state of Wyoming condemn land for access for a gravel pit for a private company.

Stig87
11-06-2013, 11:01 AM
I guess you don't hunt antelope where I used to. Those 3 walk-in areas were terribly overgrazed, even the sagebrush.

I didn't say all WIA's were great, I merely stated there are some very good ones out there.

Ilovethewest
11-06-2013, 12:21 PM
I don't remember saying I hate ranchers. I seem to remember talking about some fine people that used to let me and my family hunt. Great people. and they were ranchers.

But to say there are not problems? that's either na´ve or you are just not being honest.

I will use a real life example.

There is a chunk of BLM, about 4x5 miles. It is completely landlocked. That BLM land is paid for with tax dollars. There is a road that goes through about 20 miles of private land that is maintain by the state/fed road dollars, and that road leads to the BLM land. Yet, it is a "private" road and nobody can drive on it b/c outfitters have it shut down. Now explain to me how having a publically maintaited road, leading to a publicly bought land, a public maintained land......yet having it all shut down except for a few local ranchers.............tell me how that is fair to the taxpayer? tell me how that isn't government "welfare"??? Everyone else is paying for all of that, yet the only people using the resource is a few ranchers.

The problem lies with the bad apples............for every slob hunter out there ruining it for hunters, there is a slob rancher ruining the image of ranchers.

Things can be done to improve things. But it will take both sides to work together. I am sure that access to the 4x5 mile area I am talking could be obtained. But it would take cooperation and a willingness to do what is RIGHT, not just what helps yourself.

These issues are complex. But having anger and hatred toward the other side does no good in the long run.

birdhunter
11-06-2013, 12:22 PM
In Wyoming, if you can get public land, you can hop the fence and hunt on it. If it is land locked public land you can hunt on it if you can get to it. If you have to skydive onto it then so be it. It seems to be the same as Colorado. If you can float down a creek without touching the bottom or the banks, you can get to public land that way. Can't own the water here. The dirt underneath the water is a different story though. I will say that there are some good landowners and bad landowners. I have seen a lot post signs on their leased lands that say a person cant hunt. They wouldn't be able to do a thing about it if someone walked in and hunted though.

Colorado Cowboy
11-06-2013, 12:51 PM
I don't remember saying I hate ranchers. I seem to remember talking about some fine people that used to let me and my family hunt. Great people. and they were ranchers.

But to say there are not problems? that's either na´ve or you are just not being honest.

I will use a real life example.

There is a chunk of BLM, about 4x5 miles. It is completely landlocked. That BLM land is paid for with tax dollars. There is a road that goes through about 20 miles of private land that is maintain by the state/fed road dollars, and that road leads to the BLM land. Yet, it is a "private" road and nobody can drive on it b/c outfitters have it shut down. Now explain to me how having a publically maintaited road, leading to a publicly bought land, a public maintained land......yet having it all shut down except for a few local ranchers.............tell me how that is fair to the taxpayer? tell me how that isn't government "welfare"??? Everyone else is paying for all of that, yet the only people using the resource is a few ranchers.

The problem lies with the bad apples............for every slob hunter out there ruining it for hunters, there is a slob rancher ruining the image of ranchers.

Things can be done to improve things. But it will take both sides to work together. I am sure that access to the 4x5 mile area I am talking could be obtained. But it would take cooperation and a willingness to do what is RIGHT, not just what helps yourself.

These issues are complex. But having anger and hatred toward the other side does no good in the long run.

If this is a true county road and maintained with county tax dollars, then someone should go to the county comissioners meeting and ask why access/use of it is closed. If the county has actual ownership of the road, then it should be open to the public. Hire a lawyer and go after them.

AT Hiker
11-06-2013, 06:24 PM
x2 nv-hunter It seems like a new age of "entitlement hunters" is forming, The burn the farmer and hang the rancher mentality seems to go in to overdrive this time of year.... Any new land access needs and CAN be done with land trades, to say you would force access through private is absurd.

Not absurd to me, here in the South we call them easments and right of ways.

I dont know what the answer is, but something should be done to ensure the lay man a chance to hunt. Big Money and capitalism is not the best friend for hunting. I know there are plenty of places to hunt, but it appears a lot of those places are not quality places to hunt (some places are almost void of animals, and Im not just talking WY).

I do like the micro-manged idea though.