How do Bulls attract Cows

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Originally Posted by HuntinKid

I tried editing it - I made a typo, but accidentally deleted it instead. Que cera.

I don't know this "ElkNut" person is, but find it curious the level of deference you all are giving him when I am less than impressed by the quality or breadth of his alleged knowledge - at least with regard to cow elk traveling far distances during the rut. If you all don't like my tone - then you might want to consult with ElkNut and ask him to please tone down his own rhetoric and treat others with the respect you all expect to be afforded to him. The only twist I injected was to point out that he was wrong after he incorrectly tried to put Mr. Roe in his place - GASP! I didn't know - until now - that we cannot challenge the "enlightened one." I guess, now I know. You and your ilk have made it abundantly clear that unless you worship at the church of ElkNut, your commentary is not welcome. Well, too bad. If I have enough knowledge on a topic and see that ElkNut is wrong (or Mr. Roe, or anyone of the rest of you), again, I will point it out. Again.

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I'm a little confused about the Roe/Elknut argument here? I thought Roe was talking about bull/cow movements during the rut phase of the breeding cycle, and Elknut was talking about the early season movement patterns of bulls?

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Originally Posted by ElkNut1

But as a rule, the bulls will come looking for the cows where ever that may be. The difference here is that from a norms standpoint it is not common for cows to travel miles looking for the bulls in times of breeding. This doesn't mean to imply that it will never happen but it is more unusual when it does.

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They both - from what I gathered - generally were talking about rut movements. ElkNut just made this assertion that - while I don't know a whole lot - do know isn't accurate.

No hard feelings guys, I appreciate all the thoughts as I'm an open minded individual, I'm not a know it all & I will never know it all! (grin) Like anything else facts are good to have & sometimes opinions are coupled with them. I was not trying to B/S anyone but merely sharing my opinion or point of view. If this differs with others views I'd love to hear yours in a respectful manner! This subject posted by Trophyhill is one that has inspired some serious research on my part! I spent many hours scouring studies done as close to this subject as possible! That being, do the "Cows go to the Bulls or do the Bulls head over to the cows in pre-rut times" I'm not questioning whether the cows select bulls or the bulls select cows once in each others hearing distance or presence! This seems to be where the discrepancy is! We all want to be as accurate as possible so as not to mislead any.

I've not done any serious research on this subject alone as I really hadn't applied much attention to it over the years. But, in all the info along with personal findings in 30 years of elk hunting/research & all I could dig up on the matter, there is no cut & dry as to what gender does what. If anyone has a study done that sways this one way or another it would be great if you could share it here? In all info I found it appears it's a two way street, meaning both genders take a physical action as hormones & testosterone levels rise leading to pre-rut times & into peak rut times. In other words all action is not done by one gender & one gender only. All my findings that I was thinking in my mind when I wrote that the Bulls come towards the cows at this time seems to be in line for the most part, there are always extenuating circumstances! But the norm or trend is the bulls make their way towards the cows or areas they feel the cows should be. They may not physically stand right amongst them but could announce their presence from a distance that cows can hear them as they bugle to represent who they are, the more mature sounding bulls are the ones the cows desire & yes can choose to be with them. No problem there! (grin) So no question that Cows do select the bull they want to be with, no doubt these are the stronger dominant bulls where cows can feel secure & taken care of, these bulls represent strength & protection from the various satellites that can pester them to no end as they near estrus.

However, there are situations where younger less dominant bulls are residing in a herd bull status only to be over thrown by a bigger more mature bull & take over the harem of cows as they near estrus! In cases as this who's selecting who? Obviously the new bull is now the one of strength & dominance & he will do his best to maintain the herd through course bugling & instilling a confidence of protection within the cows, of course any cow can leave at anytime but it's more rare than common place! Too, you have satellites that can hook out or steal a cow or two in the blink of an eye from a present herd, once again who's choosing who? As I mentioned it's not just cut & dry in the elkwoods during the rut phases!

You also have satellites/subordinates that will cover miles in search of herds with hot cows, these stragglers can go from group to group until satisfied, as we all have seen this happen over the years it becomes prevalent that these bulls are the ones doing the searching for cows! There are other times where you have dominant type bulls with no cows & they are forever on the prowl looking for cows in or nearing estrus within already established herds. This doesn't mean that cows cannot do the same but it does show there is no certainty that it's one group only that does the searching! Just so it's clear, this is what I was referring too, I meant no disrespect to anyone!

ElkNut1

Dang!!!! And me without my popcorn!!! My buddies and I have been watching this on AT too!

After the initial posts by Elknut and Roe this has gotten a bit stupid! But I guess if you spend time surfing the chat forums you can see some of where HuntnKid comes from. On a lot of hunting forums it is like the Elknut knitting circle. No offense, but it is the same people all of the time. It is. Look at this thread. AT too. My guys and I always joke about what topic the circle is going to come up with next. But HuntnKid, relax man! It is just a forum.

FWIW Elknut I thought your response to Roe's post was a bit condescending too. The question was asked, you answered, he answered, leave it.

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Originally Posted by ElkNut1

Chris as usual brings up some good points! But just so no one is confused, Bulls come down to or over their way to the cows! In other words these bachelor groups are generally separated from the cow groups. It is very common to find these bulls much higher in elevation where applies, during the Summer months. These bulls will at their own pace will make their way down to these cow groups, the cows do not go & seek out the bulls until the bulls come into their areas I believe what Chris is saying is that the cows will choose the bull they allow to breed them. In many cases more than one bull will breed a cow in the 12-16 hours she is in heat or estrus.

Of course once these herd bulls establish themselves with a group no matter the size of these groups they can move anywhere even back to where the bulls came from if hunting pressure of sorts forces them to do so! The cows inherently will start seeking out their breeding grounds, this is generally in the areas they were born in. This is especially notable in non-hunting areas where elk are free to roam naturally without intrusion. Too, in these areas you will see these cow groups stay right in those vicinities they've been in all Summer as Bulls start to show on the scene that were not there previous to pre-rut!

Again, very good info related by all.

ElkNut1

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HK, I was referring to the first paragraph of elknuts statement. It certainly appears to me that he is discussing preliminary bull movement as the breeding season approaches, and I concur with his observations. I thought Chris was talking about actual breeding ground movement. I think Chris is also accurate in not all areas have the traditional high country/ lower elevation rut migration dynamic. I also thought Chris articulated that, and also articulated that indeed, bulls do come down in certain areas. Hence my confusion over this alleged "controversy".

Good thread?

Sounds like somebody needs to relax.

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Originally Posted by MichMan

But I guess if you spend time surfing the chat forums you can see some of where HuntnKid comes from. On a lot of hunting forums it is like the Elknut knitting circle. No offense, but it is the same people all of the time. It is. Look at this thread. AT too. My guys and I always joke about what topic the circle is going to come up with next. . . . FWIW Elknut I thought your response to Roe's post was a bit condescending too. The question was asked, you answered, he answered, leave it.

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ditto - very well put.

I didn't see it so much as an argument about the information, or an issue of "right and wrong," but more about being topical. It does not require "elk credentials" to see this, just basic reading comprehension and analysis. Roe was on topic. ElkNut strayed from it and then took a condescending tone. He may not have meant disrespect, but it definitely came across as such.

Guys, let's be reasonable here! I don't know you guys & you don't know me so it's very unfair to say I was taking on any sort of abusive tones, this is the internet & it's easy to get an impression as the reader himself implies how he wants to read it with emphasis on certain parts. I am one who does not beat around the bush to pacify ones, I will be up-front & tell it like it is. Everyone has a reputation, this is built up over a period of time, ones come to understand without a doubt what type of individual you are & your character. I've now been on various hunting sites for the last 10 years & many know me. What is my reputation? Am I a trouble maker & one who looks for confrontations? I can easily answer that & tell you no, I learned way back when that confrontations will get you nowhere & should be avoided! If in fact this is my reputation then why would I start now all of sudden & be intentionally abusive when I've not done this in 10 years! My tract record shows that's not me, so please give me the benefit of the doubt if you know me, if you don't know me then please don't make unfounded accusations.

The reasons many are attracted to what I write is because I have shared many thoughts, methods & techniques on elk hunting freely over the years, many have benefited from this info & show their appreciation & I truly appreciate that & it motivates me to continue doing so! I love helping others when I can & I too learn from others thoughts as well. Over the years we've had over a thousand hunters share their elk hunting success with us that they attribute to info they took to heart shared by our research & instruction. These hunters in turn share their success with their friends & families as they are excited about actual info that has improved their elk hunting skills. This type of info & excitement is contagious therefore equates into countless individuals who enjoy reading any additional info we may share. We are not perfect & we too make the needed adjustments in thought & share any clarification so we are all as accurate as possible in our sound selection or methods of use on our various elk hunts! This is why you see on the various Sites that there is a sort of following or recommendation. I thought I would clarify this for those who didn't know why others were interested in our findings & thoughts!

ElkNut1

this is what i found in relation to the OP according to Geist and Clutton-Brock. i've herd of Geist but not Clutton-Brock.

an elk breeding system is based on male advertisement (vocalizations, antler size and body size), and (female choice) choosing the bull with the afformentioned qualities if available thereby choosing the bull that presumabley has the best gene pool. "The bull must be able to seek out females and maximize his advertising"