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  1. #21
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    Well HK, sorry you feel that way. For what it is worth I'm Alan Carter in Hamilton, MT. I own Two Bear Outfitters been guiding and hunting elk for 19 years now. I have a BSC in Resource Conservation from the U of Montana. All that information I just now posted means absolutely nothing. I'm no more or less credible than anybody else. Many poster on here are familiar with posters from other places, we agree, we disagree, but we keep it civil. I enjoy others thoughts and perspectives even if they are different then mine. While my ideas and thoughts may be different than others, that doesn't mean that they are myself are "better" in any capacity. Since you are worried about not really knowing anybody, I started by telling exactly who I am, so who are you?
    Two Bear Outfitters

  2. #22
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    No one special, just a kid who likes to hunt. I'm not interested in making friends here or to promote myself - just trying to learn and be entertained (not necessarily in that order).

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoBear View Post
    Trophyhill, lets back up just a bit. In general, cows are attracted to a specific bull via his precieved fitness to supply quality genetics. Large antlers indicate a bull is able to procure enough minerals and protein to sustain quality antler growth. It also indicates an abilty to preserve through winters, follow migration patterns, avoid predators etc. Antler is what is termed as a "luxury tissue". That is biologically antler growth is a non-priority tissue. A bull must first be able to supply his bodies priority needs, so large antlers indicate over all fitness. Bugles, in general, indicate to cows that a bull may or may not be worth having a look at. Most herd bulls bugle a great deal to "imprint" thier bugles on their cows. However, large antlers and robust bugles alone do not dictate herd bull status, the willingness and abilty to defend the harem against competitor bulls is imperative. Bulls defend the harem in two ways, either by physically pushing cows away from competition, or by fighting rival bulls off physically or with threats. Cows through the selection process want to breed with the best representive of the species they can. This is where Elknuts theory of cow call aways comes in.
    thats a great response and in line with what i've read and most elk experts (and i'm certainly no expert) would agree with that. so we all know that "all encounters aren't created equal" (coined by a great elk killer) so with your explanation of that process in mind, PART 2 of the OP, what are some of the things you've done to take advantage of these types of elk habits/encounters to increase your odds and put the bull(s) on the ground when "the moment of truth" arrives?
    Last edited by trophyhill; 03-02-2011 at 05:20 PM.
    I Love the smell of Elk in the mornin
    The arrow is everything

  4. #24
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    In a nut shell Tropyhill, I am what I would described as a pressure caller when waranted. I believe successful calling is primarily a function of distance. I want to press the bull to force him to defend his harem, getting in close and challenging his right to his harem, and pressing him to deal with me. Elknut has a slightly different variation. He believes in calling the cows away to force the bull to deal with you or abandon the herd. I suppose, I may have in the past inadvertantly called cows or at least commanded their attention, forcing the bull into action. If done from a distance, I believe the bull is more inclined to herd up and go, as stated, there is more than one way to defend the herd, and leaving can be a viable option. As always, it depends on the situation and your hunting areas.

    When I cow call I typically lead with a lost cow call but also knowing I am on an intercept course with the herd. It is very helpful to know your area well in these circumstances. The benefit of having a good idea where they heading and where the want to go to get there cannot be understated. I try, as best I can, to approach and an angle switching over to more excited calls increasing pitch and tempo as we close the distance. I am trying in this circumstance to make at easy as possible for the bull to come in and pick me up. I also don't want to be in front of him and get busted by his cows, hence the angled approach. I want him to just swing over and pick me up as he is heading to his bedding/feeding area. In this circumstance, I feel cow calling is the better option. As usual again, a lot of pieces and parts have to come together for this to work, and the wind is usaully the demon in this scenerio.
    Two Bear Outfitters

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoBear View Post
    In a nut shell Tropyhill, I am what I would described as a pressure caller when waranted. I believe successful calling is primarily a function of distance. I want to press the bull to force him to defend his harem, getting in close and challenging his right to his harem, and pressing him to deal with me. Elknut has a slightly different variation. He believes in calling the cows away to force the bull to deal with you or abandon the herd. I suppose, I may have in the past inadvertantly called cows or at least commanded their attention, forcing the bull into action. If done from a distance, I believe the bull is more inclined to herd up and go, as stated, there is more than one way to defend the herd, and leaving can be a viable option. As always, it depends on the situation and your hunting areas.

    When I cow call I typically lead with a lost cow call but also knowing I am on an intercept course with the herd. It is very helpful to know your area well in these circumstances. The benefit of having a good idea where they heading and where the want to go to get there cannot be understated. I try, as best I can, to approach and an angle switching over to more excited calls increasing pitch and tempo as we close the distance. I am trying in this circumstance to make at easy as possible for the bull to come in and pick me up. I also don't want to be in front of him and get busted by his cows, hence the angled approach. I want him to just swing over and pick me up as he is heading to his bedding/feeding area. In this circumstance, I feel cow calling is the better option. As usual again, a lot of pieces and parts have to come together for this to work, and the wind is usaully the demon in this scenerio.

    i like the concept of questioning "the bulls manhood" to keep his cows. its close and exciting. last season i really got aggresive that last week of the CO hunt and though i blew a couple golden opportunities because of my inexperience and indecisiveness at "The Moment of Truth" but learned that getting aggresive can be the ticket when in close. and too "demanding attention" gets the point across when talking cow sounds. when a bull is with cows i would think that distance is key here in either tactic.
    I Love the smell of Elk in the mornin
    The arrow is everything

  6. #26
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    anyone else?
    I Love the smell of Elk in the mornin
    The arrow is everything

  7. #27
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    my response to HK on the post that somehow disappeared.

    LOL cmon man is that the best you got? you may find it on bowsite or monster muleys or hunting.net or Bowcountry or 3dshoots.com and a few other sites if you look hard enough. the reason i post some threads on more than one forum is to solicit thought and input from anyone generous enough to offer input. thats it. i figure the more input i can get from as many elk killers that will respond not only teaches me but it also helps others like me that have limited experience and eager to learn. ArcheryTalk isn't the only place that great elk killers frequent. theres no "Magic Bullet" conspiracy to purposely get ElkNut to respond in any other way than what he knows or has experienced and is gracious enough to share. if his advice offends you i really don't know what to tell you but his advice is always welcome to me and those like me that have benefited from it in the form of an elk in the freezer.

    if you think about it and read many of my threads, if you want to talk about twisty turny, some topics take a natural progression into other areas. and i don't mind this. when hunting elk as you probably know, "all encounters, elk or situations are not created equal" so what may be sticking out in one persons mind because of an experience may be a 180 from what is on someone elses mind because a similar situation took a different twist. not only can elk hunting and its topics be twisty turny, but some topics reside on a slippery slope that can bring out many different responses. its unfortunate when these threads take the kind of twist that you have injected here.

    if you wanted to know my thoughts on ElkNut's input all you had to do is ask. i have great respect for him as a man and as a teacher and place much value on his input. i killed my first elk (cow) in my second season using a tactic right out of the PlayBook regarding "hunting elk in a drizzling rain" and killed another cow elk this past season using cow sounds as described in the PlayBook. i had a Herd Bull raking and thrashing a tree 70 yards away but out of site 10 minutes before dark and elected not to look a gift horse in the mouth and was happy to take the cow. and get this, you'll really like this, after i killed that cow i ran up to CO and was a Herd Bull taking 2 steps away from killing a giant CO bull with bulls screaming all around me using an aggresive tactic straight out of the PlayBook and confirmed to work by other great elk killers and they know who they are.

    these tactics can lead a bull to water but its up to the hunter to take that drink. so looking at it from a percentage standpoint, thats 2 elk in 3 years. a 66% success rate. 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the elk from year to year and my goal is to be in that 10% year in year out. so all this being said, whether you agree with his advice or not, the results from the advice given speak volumes and shouldn't be taken lightly. it's ok to question what someone else tells you. thats human nature. i do it all the time when not satisfied with the answer or need more of an explanation to help me understand something, but lets stop with the attacks and assumptions regarding someone elses motives for wanting info or the person giving it. after all, you don't know me or what makes me tic or what motivates me. but keep your eye on the cover of EHJ magazine in the next year or 2 and you may just find out
    Last edited by trophyhill; 03-02-2011 at 08:47 PM.
    I Love the smell of Elk in the mornin
    The arrow is everything

  8. #28
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    I tried editing it - I made a typo, but accidentally deleted it instead. Que cera.

    I don't know this "ElkNut" person is, but find it curious the level of deference you all are giving him when I am less than impressed by the quality or breadth of his alleged knowledge - at least with regard to cow elk traveling far distances during the rut. If you all don't like my tone - then you might want to consult with ElkNut and ask him to please tone down his own rhetoric and treat others with the respect you all expect to be afforded to him. The only twist I injected was to point out that he was wrong after he incorrectly tried to put Mr. Roe in his place - GASP! I didn't know - until now - that we cannot challenge the "enlightened one." I guess, now I know. You and your ilk have made it abundantly clear that unless you worship at the church of ElkNut, your commentary is not welcome. Well, too bad. If I have enough knowledge on a topic and see that ElkNut is wrong (or Mr. Roe, or anyone of the rest of you), again, I will point it out. Again.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntinKid View Post
    I tried editing it - I made a typo, but accidentally deleted it instead. Que cera.

    I don't know this "ElkNut" person is, but find it curious the level of deference you all are giving him when I am less than impressed by the quality or breadth of his alleged knowledge - at least with regard to cow elk traveling far distances during the rut. If you all don't like my tone - then you might want to consult with ElkNut and ask him to please tone down his own rhetoric and treat others with the respect you all expect to be afforded to him. The only twist I injected was to point out that he was wrong after he incorrectly tried to put Mr. Roe in his place - GASP! I didn't know - until now - that we cannot challenge the "enlightened one." I guess, now I know. You and your ilk have made it abundantly clear that unless you worship at the church of ElkNut, your commentary is not welcome. Well, too bad. If I have enough knowledge on a topic and see that ElkNut is wrong (or Mr. Roe, or anyone of the rest of you), again, I will point it out. Again.
    in all due respect you questioned my motive for posting the same topic on 2 different forums and made a couple assumptions about "me" and my reasons for posting, not knowing me from Adam, hence my response to you. i'm sure Chris and Paul will talk and get things ironed out being the consumate professionals that they are. i'm certainly not going to apologize to you for starting a thread on 2 different forums based on your assumptions about the "likes of me" and my desire to seek useful information to be used when "the moment of truth" arrives.

    so now that we've cleared the air on that matter lets get back on topic. can you answer part 2 of the OP?
    I Love the smell of Elk in the mornin
    The arrow is everything

  10. #30
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    wow,
    i think Chris and especally huntnkid need to relax
    i am no expert on elk , elk habits or what elk are thinking. thats best left to the experts. what i am fairly decent at is killing elk. not bragging, because i could care less what anyone thinks about me. i rarely post any pictures or even post on these sites. ive hunted/killed elk all bulls public land diy in oregon, idaho, wyoming , nevada (hopefully this year in arizona} total of 24 bulls . thats a bull every year since 1988, again not bragging, {go back to previous coment on not caring what others think} i also live in elk habitat, meaning we see and study elk from the house. i also feel like i havent even scratched the surface on learning about elk, i read , study and think about elk all year. i dont think its right to say anyone is wrong or right about elk they never seem to do the same predictable things all of the time {like women}


    i also think elknut nailed it when he said nothing is written in stone. the comments he and 2bears made are more like i have seen in the elk woods. i also like there humble attitude tward elk that they have. i am not going to argue with chris because i dont like the way his answers were. i looked on his website and saw only 7 bulls with him holding them but since he is a "certified wildlife bioligist" he must know exactly how elk think every time {maybe we should seek his advise on women also, ha ha } huntinkid where are your elk credentials. 2 bears listed his, i listed mine ,

 

 

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