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  1. #21
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    If you think about it how many guys currently just apply for pref pts in Colo waiting for a top tier unit to draw? How many of those guys that have 10 to 18 pref pts have a chance of drawing a 2, 10, or 201 elk tag in their lifetime.....NONE OF THEM! How many of those guys with 10 to 18 pref pts will sooner or later realize they won't draw one of the top tier tags and would jump at the chance to burn their pref pts on several medium tier units....probably ALL OF THEM if they are smart! What will happen to the middle tier units once guys that once just applied for pref pts are now drawing 2 or maybe 3 middle tier units with all their pref pts. It's pretty easy to visualize that mid tier units will escillate.

    Once middle tier units "point leap" what will happen to the units below them? Obviously they will take more pref pts to draw. What will happen then? It doesn't take much to figure out that since 5 to 10 pref pt units will then take 8 to 15 pref pts to draw applicants will use pt banking to draw the low tier tags. I can guarantee there will be a domino affect that will spiral down to even the 0 pref pts units! The writing is pretty much on the wall what a point banking system will do in the long term in Colo! Once points "leap" with this system they definitely won't stabilize or ever return to where they are today....pretty much guaranteed! This is actually one of the scariest moments in almost 30 years I've lived in Colo for seeing a change in the draw system that will have horrible implications for everyone....and especially your kids that may want to hunt some day!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimss View Post
    If you think about it how many guys currently just apply for pref pts in Colo waiting for a top tier unit to draw? How many of those guys that have 10 to 18 pref pts have a chance of drawing a 2, 10, or 201 elk tag in their lifetime.....NONE OF THEM! How many of those guys with 10 to 18 pref pts will sooner or later realize they won't draw one of the top tier tags and would jump at the chance to burn their pref pts on several medium tier units....probably ALL OF THEM if they are smart! What will happen to the middle tier units once guys that once just applied for pref pts are now drawing 2 or maybe 3 middle tier units with all their pref pts. It's pretty easy to visualize that mid tier units will escillate.

    Once middle tier units "point leap" what will happen to the units below them? Obviously they will take more pref pts to draw. What will happen then? It doesn't take much to figure out that since 5 to 10 pref pt units will then take 8 to 15 pref pts to draw applicants will use pt banking to draw the low tier tags. I can guarantee there will be a domino affect that will spiral down to even the 0 pref pts units! The writing is pretty much on the wall what a point banking system will do in the long term in Colo! Once points "leap" with this system they definitely won't stabilize or ever return to where they are today....pretty much guaranteed! This is actually one of the scariest moments in almost 30 years I've lived in Colo for seeing a change in the draw system that will have horrible implications for everyone....and especially your kids that may want to hunt some day!

    I believe you are right and that the tried and failed point banking should not be brought back. From what I understand point leap is what the CPW is planning on to get rid of all the points they have issued.

    Something to think about is that point banking will take what it takes to draw +1 so lets say you have 11 points and decide a mid tier elk unit first rifle hunt that is now at 6 to draw but will go up to 8 with point banking +1 so you will burn 9 points for what is now a 6 point unit.. That will leave you with 2 and not able to draw anything.. So the 11 point guys will figure this out and go after the archery tags in said unit as it is only 3 points to draw but with banking it will jump to 5+1 and leave you with a archery unit that could have been drawn with 3 this year easily taking 6 for someone who is "banking" points..

    If you dont have points and as stated there are a ton of hunters who hunt and dont just gather points. These guys will still want to hunt and know how to get leftovers ect so leftovers will become a thing of the past.

    IMO point banking will unless you have saved points point banking will essentially cut you out of any chance at a license for any unit that currently takes any points to draw for the next 5 year cycle. I also believe the people who believe under point banking any unit that currently takes 1-4 points to draw will leap to take 2-3 more points the next year to draw.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by packmule View Post
    I just don't think the top point holders are going to burn them. The guys I know with over 20 deer points are going to sit it out until 4th seasons come back in the Basin. The mid tier guys may burn them on decent units if they have a shot at drawing again in a few years instead of starting back from scratch. The 0-2pt units should be in more danger from ppl resetting to 0 bc that's all they can try to draw. (For deer)... Those same guys have similar points for elk and are looking at the 2/201 units like everyone else with no intention of going elsewhere. Too cheap to hunt bulls in other areas of the state just for fun hunts.
    By the time that happens it will winter kill again!! They want buck to doe@ 45-100 well in 2011 it was 45-100. Taking 3000 more deer off the basin reduces the quote comeback. That is 1350 bucks out of the 3000@ a 45-100 mix. Now it was up to 60-100 when there was 3000 more deer there. I think they are at objective and will move between 40-45 bucks per 100 does. But total deer numbers are not going where they once were. I would hunt 35-36 4th season 3 times with 20 points if I were a res. Which I am.

  4. #24
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    Here is a example just of archery elk and how many points will be ADDED to the pool...

    Dont doubt that if point banking is reinstated that unless you have points banked that you will not have any chance what so ever a current 1-6 point unit over the entire next 5 year cycle. If you are starting in the point game you better plan on waiting 5 or more years before you can draw a tag that now only takes 2-3 points....

    If reinstated I can see 15 units for deer anyway that will switch over to the 20%non res 80% res license split as banking will ADD that many points to the pool over the next 5 years.

    Some very good info below that I took from another forum..


    If point banking were in effect in 2013 in Colorado for Archery Elk:

    501 resident archers would have a total of 863 more points for the 2014 drawing.
    267 nonresident archers would have a total of 596 more points for the 2014 drawing.

    Leaving that many points in the point pool each year is the definition of point creep. This is in addition to hunters changing their plans to take advantage of point banking.

    I am against point baking. Here is my analysis:

    After the 2013 Archery elk drawing (if point banking were allowed)

    346 more resident archery elk hunters would have 1 point for the 2014 drawing.
    92 more resident archery elk hunters would have 2 points
    35 more resident archery elk hunters would have 3 points
    18 more resident archery elk hunters would have 4 points
    12 more resident archery elk hunters would have 5 points
    3 more resident archery elk hunters would have 6 points
    3 more resident archery elk hunters would have 7 points
    5 more resident archery elk hunters would have 8 points
    2 more resident archery elk hunters would have 9 points
    1 more resident archery elk hunter would have 10 points

    137 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 1 point for the 2014 drawing.
    54 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 2 points
    25 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 3 points
    19 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 4 points
    14 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 5 points
    9 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 6 points
    2 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 7 points
    4 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 8 points
    1 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 9 points
    1 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 10 points
    1 more nonresident archery elk hunters would have 11 points

    This data was collected from 2013ElkHuntRecap and 2013ElkDrawSummary from the 37 archery elk drawing units.

    I counted the number of points over the number required to guarantee a drawn tag.

    For example EE004O1A required 1 point to GUARANTEE a resident one of the 293 tags. Most hunters drew with 0 points.
    23 hunters applied for EE004O1a with 2 points, so they would have 1 point after a point banking drawing.
    5 hunters applied for EE004O1a with 3 points, so they would have 2 points after a point banking drawing.
    1 hunter applied for EE004O1a with 7 points, so they would have 6 points after a point banking drawing.

    There are also 372 drawings for Bull or either sex elk rifle or muzzleloader tags which may multiply these numbers by 10.

    How many rifle or muzzleloader hunters may switch to archery to take advantage of point banking?
    How many of the 67,668 hunters collecting points (EP-999-99-P) will start applying for the hunt you want?

    The point creep that will be caused by point banking is permanent. The hunters who would have drawn without point banking now have 1 more point for next year.

    If reinstated the effects of this mistake will be permanent and last past the next 5 year structure.
    Last edited by ColoradoV; 04-11-2014 at 08:07 AM.

  5. #25
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    How is using some points instead of all of them going to help with point creep? I'm no Einstein but it seems backwards to me. Let the select few guys keep chasing the top units and let the rest go hunting. There is no solution to the 2, 201, 61 type units that will make everyone happy. There will never be enough tags, supply will always exceed demand. I've got 1 point and it takes 3 to guarantee the unit I'm looking into for the last 3 years. Point creep seems to be about .25 points per year in this unit, so I could theoretically hunt it in 2016, then 2020, then 2024 or 2025, and so on in the current system. If this passes then probably only once or twice in my lifetime.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BleuBijou View Post
    By the time that happens it will winter kill again!! They want buck to doe@ 45-100 well in 2011 it was 45-100. Taking 3000 more deer off the basin reduces the quote comeback. That is 1350 bucks out of the 3000@ a 45-100 mix. Now it was up to 60-100 when there was 3000 more deer there. I think they are at objective and will move between 40-45 bucks per 100 does. But total deer numbers are not going where they once were. I would hunt 35-36 4th season 3 times with 20 points if I were a res. Which I am.

    Prob is with the minimal number of 4th season tags they could issue, there's never been a reason to cut out the season, especially if they don't want the high numbers back.

  7. #27
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    Seems to me, this is just another issue of selfish folks trying to get what they want, at the expense of others.. "I'm never going to draw the NW corner, but I don't want to burn my 20 points on a 10 point unit, I should get to hunt it twice. Don't care if it will hurt the guy that wants to hunt every year."

    It's nobody's fault but the point holder, that they decided to build points, and hold out for the 'best' units. Don't shaft the guy that hunts every year, or every few years, because they decided not to build up a pile of points.
    My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.

  8. #28
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    I have 10 points for elk and 10 for deer as a NR. I wish there was some way to just stop giving points. Let people with points use them but no new points ever. Eventually it would be random draw for everyone and it couldn't be any more fair once that was achieved. I'm probably the only one thinking this way though. Nebraska is starting a point system for elk this year but I'm not in favor of it. I need someone to explain the advantages of a point system to me I guess. It all starts out good but I don't see it as ever having a happy ending. Maybe someone can help me out that has a better grasp of the advantages of it?
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by NE69 View Post
    I have 10 points for elk and 10 for deer as a NR. I wish there was some way to just stop giving points. Let people with points use them but no new points ever. Eventually it would be random draw for everyone and it couldn't be any more fair once that was achieved. I'm probably the only one thinking this way though. Nebraska is starting a point system for elk this year but I'm not in favor of it. I need someone to explain the advantages of a point system to me I guess. It all starts out good but I don't see it as ever having a happy ending. Maybe someone can help me out that has a better grasp of the advantages of it?
    I'd love to see the state just stop giving points, I guess that would probably be the only fair way to do it? That, or maybe announce that in 5 years, all points will be eliminated.

    With regards to your question on the advantages of point systems: None
    My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.

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  11. #30
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    In answer to drawing a tag using your PP.......if you have 10 PP and you apply for a unit that takes 5 PP to draw it will take you 5 PP plus 1 extra PP per point banking to draw that unit; (5+1). You would then have 4 PP left from your 10 PP.
    The reason that no one noticed any effect the last time they did point banking was because it was done only one year and then scrapped. It will have minimal effect the first year it is implicated but the more years it is in effect, the harder it will become for the lower tier units to be drawn UNLESS you have the PP to use for them as the PP increase to draw them. OTC units will see an increase in hunters as guys with not enough PP to hunt the lower tier units will turn to them in order to be able to hunt every year. Point banking is a very bad idea that will only help a few while hurting many.

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